The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: Alteration of The Dwarven History, Alteration to Angmar's history, problems with certain character dynamics in The Council scene, Too Much Stone and Too much giant. . . (AinurOlorin)

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Alteration of The Dwarven History, Alteration to Angmar's history, problems with certain character dynamics in The Council scene, Too Much Stone and Too much giant. . .

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 14 2013, 9:13am

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Alteration of The Dwarven History, Alteration to Angmar's history, problems with certain character dynamics in The Council scene, Too Much Stone and Too much giant. . . [In reply to]	Can't Post

There is a fairly long short list, for a film which, overall, I really loved. I think it is a wonderful film, and for that it is also, in its way, a great film, though not so profound nor as lofty as Lord of The Rings, which is appropriate. I have listed off things I loved. Here are some things which I did not, and which, in some instances, I hated.

1) The alteration of the actual history of The Dwarves for the sake of including Azog. That history is POWERFUL! From Thrain tearing his beard as he wept and sitting 7 silent days, to the muster for the war of vengeance in which all the Dwarf Houses took part, so infuriated were they over the desecration of the Heir of Durin, the symbolic Father of all their race, to their "sacking all the strongholds of the goblins they could find from Gundabad to The Gladden," and them having "hunted for Azog in every den under the mountains," to Dain (I would have been okay with them making it Thorin, if Dain still gets some later cameo) slaying Azog at the gate, only to behold the Great Terror of his people, The Balrog of Moria, Captain of Melkor The Morgoth, Bane of Durin, and the only true master of that region for a thousand years, and finally Dain returning to Thrain and informing him that "YOU will NOT enter Khazad-Dum. . . it waits for you still, Durin's Bane. The world must change, and some other (greater) Power than that of The Dwarves must come before Durin's folk walk again in Moria." The tale we got was good, but LESS by far than what it could and should have been.

2) ^ The scene above went a little too graphic, when one considers how clearly targeted at children other parts of the movie (some properly) were, and the fact that this film was always going to have an appeal for children if done at all correctly (which it largely was). They could have related Thror's fate without having it displayed for a 30 to 35 second sequence.

3) THE FLAMING PINECONES WERE UNDERWHELMING Unsure

. I hesitate to complain about this scene because A) I am very glad that it made it in at all and B) I am thankful it played as much a role as it did. . . yet it still seemed a little cheap in its execution. Obviously it should not have turned into an over the top moment. But there was something almost comic and certainly less than adequately impressive about the decided lack of bang in those makeshift missiles. It would have been much more satisfying if they had ignited in blue fire, as does the first one in the book, and had a little more force upon impact, rather like scaled down versions of the blue blast of flame with which filmic Gandalf dislodges the massive stone in the Goblin Town sequence.

4) The Dynamic of The Council, especially, at certain points, between Gandalf and Galadriel. There were parts of the scene which I loved, but the Gandalf whom Galadriel wished to see lead the Council, and who refused because he was unwilling to be subject to any summons or authority save The Powers who sent him, was nowhere to be seen here. There were some beautiful moments between himself and Galadriel, but some of the other moments left a distinct (and erronneous) impression that she was somehow his direct superior and guidance counsellor. A lay viewer would almost certainly never realize, based on that scene, that he was a Holy messenger sent to aid Elves and all other free folk. They would more likely (and some major critics DID) come away with the notion that she was his instructor.

5) Lindir getting a spotlight whilst Glorfindel again gets the shaft. I know the reasons. The reasons are shatty garbage. I know it is a small matter to some. Yet, Glorfindel, aside from his august nature and friendship with Gandalf and Elrond, played a significant role in the history of The Third Age at at least two points, one of them being a defining moment in the overthrow of Angmar and its Witch-King (a topic which this film specifically raises). Lindir never did anything to our knowledge except read and judge poetry between Aragorn and Bilbo.

6) The Stone Giants were. . . just too much. It is all spilt milk now, and I won't cry over it, but They were too stony, their sequence lasted too long, and they were WAAAY too big. How am I going to be properly impressed by the size of Smaug (who should be the single most massive creature we ever encounter in these films) when I have been subjected to a good five to seven minutes of mountains coming alive and attacking each other? I originally wanted the Stone Giants in the film. . . but more humanoid and less gigantic. Be careful what you wish for, indeed.

7) I ended up really liking Radagast, if the truth be known, from his enchanted forest, to his enchanted tree house, to the beautiful gemstone in his staff, to his quick analysis of the witchcraft at work, to his bunny sled, yes even the sled, which I thought was a wonderful touch for children who are, as they should be, an important constituancy of The Hobbit's overall audience. And, unlike you Jtarkey, I was thrilled that the Wizard put his wand/staff dead and center in the Witch-King's ass. The Nine would all have been less potent at this point in time than they were by the time of the other films, and it also helped assuage the insult of how RIDICULOUSLY over powered The Witch-King was portrayed in the extended version of Return of The King. My GREAT HOPE is that Gandalf might hopefully be shown in Dol Guldur putting a FAR more ASTOUNDING fight up against The Nine, in a manner mirroring his light and flame and Lightning seen from afar leaping up from the hilltop battle with them atop Amon Sul in Fellowship. . . the battle that was left out of the film. And, having said all that, let me tell you the things I actually disliked about Radagast. . . lol. There were times when the silly went too over the top. The bird feces on his face? Too much. The constant crossing of his eyes. . . also too much. It was bearable in the smoking scene, but it really damaged, to my mind, his healing/spider daunting spell, which was otherwise a very serious and impressive moment.

8) And, yes, much of the warg chase was superflous, though I REALLY liked their initial introduction with their howling, Bilbo's query, and Bofur's answer. The one flaw of that early part of the scene was that the massive Wargs were too easily put down, and thus the terror of them was diminished.

9) Too much in the snot gag department, to the point where it was nearly Gag inducing. Much of the Troll scene was spot on excellent in my estimation, but the over emphasis on the mucous swinging from Tom's nose was disgusting and unecessary. The use of Bilbo as a handkerchief would have been fine without Jackson going over the top in the repulsive antics department.

10) I LOVED Gandalf's explosive entrance into Goblin Town. It was epic and magnificent, and it did alot to make up for how pared down his scenes of Wizardry were in Fellowship. I also loved how he flame blast dislodged a boulder, and I liked much of the dwarves fighting techniques. And, yes, I was very amused by Dame Goblin King, and was glad for the performance. But the chase scene lasted at least 3 minutes too long (or so it seemed), and there were points during the repeated twirlings and leaps, and swaying pieces of archietecture when it did become too much of a cross between The Goonies (as much as I LOVED that movie), meets Indiana Jones meets the Fables video game series (much as I loved the first three of those games lol).

11) I thought the dwarves had too hard a time dealing with the orcs. It shouldn't have taken both Dwalin and Bifur more than a minute to kill an already downed orc. And Thorin's battle with Azog was pathetic. I know Azog was on a warg the size of a an adult bison or buffalo. Yet, wielding Orcrist, Thorin repelled the hippopotamusss sized Goblin King. It would have been more satisfying if Thorin's enchanted sword had at least met with Azog's mace and dismounted him. Then, during a more appreciable combat, Thorin still could have been flung back, and the great white warg could still have taken him from behind into her jaws, resulting in him still having to be saved and Bilbo still getting his moved up moment to shine.

12) Lastly, I never quite forgot that story about the lady who was turned away from a casting audition for tone, and I would have liked to have seen a greater bit of diversity in Dale. Maybe next film. I know, I know. . . but still.

And that is it. That is absolutely all. Anything else that I did not plaintively discuss, you may assume I either loved or liked quite well.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 14 2013, 9:15am)

Subject	User	Time
What do you dislike the most : TH AUJ	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 1:02am
Trolls	IdrilofGondolin	Feb 14 2013, 1:13am
And I cannot for the life of me understand why Gandalf wasn't given his entire "Dawn take you all and be stone to you" line	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 1:36am
I've wondered about that, too.	BoromirOfWinterfell	Feb 15 2013, 12:34pm
Just a wee bit of disappointment	Aragalen the Green	Feb 14 2013, 2:07am
I saw it again this past Saturday afternoon,	sauget.diblosio	Feb 14 2013, 2:33am
I'll do a top ten list real quick...	jtarkey	Feb 14 2013, 3:43am
Radagast	glor	Feb 14 2013, 5:27am
I disagree	Radagast-Aiwendil	Feb 15 2013, 7:25pm
I am familiar with McCoys work	glor	Feb 15 2013, 10:48pm
Yes I know you're familiar	Radagast-Aiwendil	Feb 16 2013, 11:16am
Alteration of The Dwarven History, Alteration to Angmar's history, problems with certain character dynamics in The Council scene, Too Much Stone and Too much giant. . .	AinurOlorin	Feb 14 2013, 9:13am
Epic post	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 6:04pm
Great post! And I completely agree about Radagast.	Tintall�	Feb 14 2013, 7:08pm
GT	TFP	Feb 14 2013, 12:40pm
You have nailed it	imin	Feb 14 2013, 12:40pm
I don't know about nailed it.	Elessar	Feb 14 2013, 2:09pm
They nailed it ;)	imin	Feb 14 2013, 2:53pm
Negative posts	Glorfindela	Feb 14 2013, 3:26pm
I think this was one mistake for me	imin	Feb 14 2013, 4:16pm
Thought vs Thought lol	Elessar	Feb 14 2013, 3:51pm
Great rant	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:53pm
Hmmm. Why do I hear "scrubbing bubbles" echoing in my head?!!!!! //	Tintall�	Feb 14 2013, 7:13pm
Yeah, I'm trying to coin the phrase "tolkien goggles"	jtarkey	Feb 14 2013, 7:07pm
It doesn't make every film instantly enjoyable....	dormouse	Feb 14 2013, 7:29pm
Maybe not where you live :P	imin	Feb 14 2013, 8:06pm
Well yes, of course, anything in the film could have been done differently...	dormouse	Feb 14 2013, 11:21pm
Bomby agrees W/ dormouse..completely...	Bombadil	Feb 15 2013, 12:15am
I want them to do their thing	imin	Feb 15 2013, 12:22am
I am emphatically stating my opinion	imin	Feb 15 2013, 12:17am
I feel for ya	jtarkey	Feb 15 2013, 12:44am
Frivolous Modsuits	JWPlatt	Feb 15 2013, 1:04am
Help! Help! I'm bein' repressed!	Tintall�	Feb 15 2013, 1:17am
Context	JWPlatt	Feb 15 2013, 12:49am
Emotional and aesthetic positioning	Michelle Johnston	Feb 15 2013, 11:48am
Concerning diviniti and killing and a begginer Andy Serkis as a director	Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)	Feb 15 2013, 8:45pm
Pretty much	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:30pm
The Bunny Sled Chase	Elutherian	Feb 14 2013, 3:46am
Identical to mine	totoro	Feb 14 2013, 6:46am
yes, the chase itself is the biggest weakness	Silmaril	Feb 14 2013, 10:44am
Tru dat	TwirlingThorin	Feb 15 2013, 10:56pm
Three Things	JWPlatt	Feb 14 2013, 4:13am
The start of the credits.	Roheryn	Feb 14 2013, 4:25am
Brilliant! And ditto! //	Tintall�	Feb 14 2013, 7:05am
Fall of the Goblin King	S�lim�	Feb 14 2013, 4:41am
Slightly disliked	cats16	Feb 14 2013, 5:01am
It was way too short	Kangi Ska	Feb 14 2013, 6:36am
Hahahaha! Yes indeed! //	Tintall�	Feb 14 2013, 7:04am
Wild applause!	dormouse	Feb 14 2013, 8:51am
Not for me	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:27pm
Haha!	Owain	Feb 14 2013, 6:37pm
Negativity for its own sake! //	dormouse	Feb 14 2013, 8:50am
Pretty much lol	Elessar	Feb 14 2013, 12:24pm
Why label it like that, "negativity for its own sake"?	Macfeast	Feb 14 2013, 4:20pm
Macfeast and Inin	Glorfindela	Feb 14 2013, 4:45pm
Because that's how it seemed to me	dormouse	Feb 14 2013, 6:58pm
OP may not have asked directly, word-for-word for thoughtful discussion.	Macfeast	Feb 14 2013, 7:09pm
Perhaps we should Ask	IdrilofGondolin	Feb 14 2013, 9:06pm
Sometimes, negativity can bring positivity	jtarkey	Feb 14 2013, 7:16pm
In fact	Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)	Feb 15 2013, 8:05pm
And the	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:25pm
Positivity is constructive....	dormouse	Feb 14 2013, 6:52pm
I think this thread is rather excellent, actually	Tintall�	Feb 15 2013, 1:16am
I disliked only these things	Glorfindela	Feb 14 2013, 12:01pm
I'm OK with most of the cinematic "cliches"...	Kendalf	Feb 14 2013, 12:03pm
"That'll do it."	utku	Feb 14 2013, 12:49pm
Excesses of Spielbergian proportion...	Otaku-sempai	Feb 14 2013, 1:04pm
Agreed but	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:39pm
Too much...	Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)	Feb 14 2013, 1:57pm
Yep, the totally unnatural lighting was another...	Kendalf	Feb 14 2013, 5:09pm
Yeah i agree	imin	Feb 14 2013, 5:15pm
Hi there	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:37pm
I guess my main dislike can be summed up in one word:	Old Toby	Feb 14 2013, 3:56pm
I like his design	Lusitano	Feb 14 2013, 5:56pm
I loved Azog	Tintall�	Feb 14 2013, 10:58pm
Oh no! A positive post in a negative thread! ;)	Lio	Feb 15 2013, 12:53am
Most of my complaints stem from the "fan-fiction" portions	Salmacis81	Feb 14 2013, 6:06pm
Another 'complaint'	Glorfindela	Feb 14 2013, 6:13pm
Ditto	Elessar	Feb 14 2013, 6:29pm
Easy - Goblin Town escape above all	elostirion74	Feb 14 2013, 11:41pm
Some thoughts and opinions	Idhreneth	Feb 15 2013, 12:08am
He's only a very newly arisen, baby witch king after all! : p //	Tintall�	Feb 15 2013, 1:33am
The use of the "Nazgul" theme	Lio	Feb 15 2013, 12:35am
That bothered me too, actually	Tintall�	Feb 15 2013, 1:31am
I disliked a couple of things	Ham_Sammy	Feb 15 2013, 2:37am
The Misty Mountain theme...	Estel78	Feb 15 2013, 4:13am
It felt that needed a little bit more of gasoline	Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)	Feb 15 2013, 8:26pm
Someone that gets me!!!	Estel78	Feb 15 2013, 8:45pm
Give me fuel give me fire!	Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)	Feb 15 2013, 8:53pm
Not so much	CathrineB	Feb 15 2013, 12:46pm
He was	Arannir	Feb 15 2013, 1:11pm
On CGI	glor	Feb 15 2013, 10:45pm
Trolls scene from the moment	maut	Feb 15 2013, 6:02pm
my main complaint	Elenorflower	Feb 15 2013, 11:09pm
Getting to the nub of the challange	Michelle Johnston	Feb 16 2013, 11:30am
thank you for your comments	Elenorflower	Feb 16 2013, 1:01pm
Chaucer a better example	Michelle Johnston	Feb 16 2013, 4:30pm
Some people	imin	Feb 16 2013, 5:55pm
Observation	JWPlatt	Feb 16 2013, 6:36pm
It was made as a joke	imin	Feb 16 2013, 6:39pm
Majority Rules	JWPlatt	Feb 16 2013, 6:45pm
very true	imin	Feb 16 2013, 6:48pm
But this isn't a hunting trip.	macfalk	Feb 16 2013, 6:49pm
Learning From History	JWPlatt	Feb 16 2013, 2:36pm
However...	Estel78	Feb 16 2013, 2:41pm
Films He Likes To See	JWPlatt	Feb 16 2013, 2:45pm
And that's good	Estel78	Feb 16 2013, 2:53pm
Great Summary	Michelle Johnston	Feb 16 2013, 4:19pm
I have to agree as usual...	Eleniel	Feb 16 2013, 1:30pm
Well, it is a children's book	Estel78	Feb 16 2013, 2:24pm
On lost tension and manners	glor	Feb 16 2013, 4:33pm
thats interesting	Elenorflower	Feb 16 2013, 5:02pm
I thought	imin	Feb 16 2013, 5:53pm
Differences in manners are cultural..	glor	Feb 16 2013, 6:16pm
The class system idea	imin	Feb 16 2013, 6:29pm
the thing I like most about Tolkien	Elenorflower	Feb 16 2013, 8:12pm
The joy can only be in experiencing the journey	Michelle Johnston	Feb 17 2013, 7:12am
I really like this.	AinurOlorin	Feb 17 2013, 11:09pm
A helping hand to our destiny	Michelle Johnston	Feb 18 2013, 10:22pm
Balance	JWPlatt	Feb 19 2013, 12:14am
This one criticism rings most true to me, aside from those about major changes to the history of the legendarium itself.	AinurOlorin	Feb 16 2013, 7:37pm
reply	imin	Feb 16 2013, 7:44pm
Indeed.	AinurOlorin	Feb 16 2013, 8:50pm
Thank you	Elessar	Feb 16 2013, 11:08pm
Thank you very much and you are welcome for what i said :)	imin	Feb 17 2013, 1:29am
Absolutely. The excess damaged what I thought were otherwise quite good scenes.	AinurOlorin	Feb 17 2013, 5:37am
THIS!	jtarkey	Feb 17 2013, 1:05am
Give me any work of art or literature.	Escapist	Feb 15 2013, 11:19pm
I just thought of another one ...	Escapist	Feb 15 2013, 11:24pm
This one is actually true.	imin	Feb 16 2013, 12:23am
Goblin King's one liner	WhiskFishercat	Feb 16 2013, 12:37am
That it's not at my theatre anymore chin quivers //	grammaboodawg	Feb 16 2013, 3:27am
"NO! SEBASTIAN!" //	macfalk	Feb 16 2013, 6:41pm
I don't get the Bombur complaints.	macfalk	Feb 16 2013, 6:46pm
You have mentioned almost all the times his weight has caused something different for himself	imin	Feb 16 2013, 6:57pm
I have indeed discussed this before	macfalk	Feb 16 2013, 7:04pm
There was someone else	imin	Feb 16 2013, 7:25pm
Bombur	JWPlatt	Feb 16 2013, 7:21pm
It was more than adequate compared to the book at this point	macfalk	Feb 16 2013, 7:24pm
I think it's too early to say	imin	Feb 16 2013, 7:29pm
Bofur, Dori and Ori recieved noticable attention. And, to a lesser extent,	AinurOlorin	Feb 16 2013, 7:38pm
Oh yeah so did Bofur	imin	Feb 16 2013, 7:47pm
Tolkien, though, made no claims that all dwarves would get attention.	Macfeast	Feb 17 2013, 12:26am
IDK	jtarkey	Feb 17 2013, 1:12am
My turn!	anagum	Feb 20 2013, 3:29am

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