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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Answers at last

sador
Valinor


Feb 11 2013, 12:16pm


Views: 177
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Answers at last [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that the discussion for the next chapter is up, I can tackle this one...

Why do you suppose the other Valar don't make their own trips to M-E?
Why bother? Too much trouble, not enough fun.

Don't they all have a personal stake in it?
Not really.

But this goes with the wider question of whether the Valar were not neglecting their charge - in effect, whether Melkor's lies were not, in a fashion, true (I guess they must be in order to take root).
Do you consider this a flaw, or a feature, of Arda's theology? Could this explain the question you've asked in Main, as to why there is no Vala-based cult?

Why does Orome get no dialogue?
Most of the Valar don't - not even the Queenly Varda!
As a rule, the Valar don't speak; they declaim. The only exceptions are the last chapter, and Tulkas, which always seems like the dullard muscleman.
In one of Tolkien's late writings (which didn't make the cut - much to Voronwe's chagrin), the Valar do actually engage in a debate, regarding the fate of Miriel and the second marriage of Finwe. But this is an exception as well, and might actually be the reason Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay felt it was incompatible with the tone of the rest. Who knows? They don't tell.

Why do you think Melkor was nibbling around the edges of the Elves and kidnapping them a few at a time? Why not enslave them all at once?
I never really asked myself. Thank you for raising this question!
My first impulse was to say that Elves, before having diminishd, were not so easy to catch. But I've read some of the other responses, and I really like the idea that as evil cannot really create anything, Melkor left some free on purpose. He surely did that with Men.

The Elves who never reach Valinor still benefit from seeing the stars made from its Two Trees.
Would they not benefit more from proper light?
Perhaps not, for the sun heralded their decline. But this is a case of the Valar hoarding the light for themselves.
Do you think this is the true history of the Elves - one of neglected children?

The Elves love the stars as their first sight, and their first sound is water, which remembers the Great Music.
And is controlled by the one Vala (Melkor excepted) which never forgot them.
But perhaps this is because water remembers the Great Music? Ulmo might know less of Eru's plans than Mandos, but the vision resonates with him like it does with no others - and he never forgets neither Elves nor Men.

Melkor never forgives the Elves for being the cause of his downfall.
What do you think he would do otherwise? I'm not even sure Gollum would do otherwise had he been driven only by desire for the Precious and not by hate.
And by the way - there are absolutely no indications of Dwarves hating Ents for the massacre at Sarn Athrad, are there? Gimli seems utterly clueless regarding their very existence.

This is our first introduction to Elves, and already we collide with the bittersweet news that they become weaker over time, and it takes sadness to make them more beautiful than their progenitors.
This is the doctrine of the slow decline of the generations.

Do you ever wonder (like me) why Tolkien can't just make everyone happy for a little while?
There'e the end of The Hobbit, Farmer Giles of Ham and Leaf by Niggle. Also Roverandom.
Isn't that enough?

What effect does this connection to our own world have on you? Do you react with, "Cool! That's our world!" or "Hmm. I liked it better when this was a fantasy place in another time that I could escape to." ?
I never went for astronomy, so it doesn't really matter.
It's fun to imagine Middle-earth as based on our earth; but with Myths Transformed, one gets the feeling that Tolkien took it too seriously.

Tolkien calls Varda's new stars "the greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda." Do you agree? I vote the Trees as greatest.

Well, the stars lasted.
I still think the sun is actually greater - but I suspect Tolkien was harking back to the Book of Lost Tales version, in which the Valar themselves were afraid of the sun, having fashioned it without understanding what aterrible source of energy they had unleashed.


The Valar don't find Sauron and many other creatures of Melkor. How do you react to this: do you think they should have and are at fault?
They seem to just be eager to return back to the light and joy of Valinor, right? Not quite interested in doing a thorough job of it.

Or was Melkor just fiendishly clever in hiding things from people who don't really understand deceit?
Sauron was clever enough himself to hide, thank you.
Actually, I doubt that Melkor ever provided for a rainy day. He always seems to underestimate his adversaries.

If you were there, wouldn't you get more information out of Mandos?
I would try; but he wouldn't divulge any.

Doesn't this sound like a warning that no one is heeding?
No; like an authorial comment.
I'm not sure that the word "doom" has such negative connotations for the Valar as for us mere mortals.

And if he understands it himself, doesn't he owe it to his kindred to warn them of the consequences?
No. He has his knowledge from Iluvatar, and speaks only at his or Manwe's bidding.
And what would his warning help? To change the doom? This would be betraying his trust.

Aside from that, do you agree with Ulmo that the Elves should have been left in Middle-earth?
Who can tell what would have happened otherwise? Many of the Valar's decisions in the first chapters are open to questions, but it is wrong to blame all the woes that befell afterwards on any single one.

Why are the Noldor called "the Deep Elves?" To me, "deep" means philosophical, or a highly complex personality. Are the Teleri and Vanyar shallow in comparison?
I think that's exactly what Tolkien meant.
And yes, as far as we know - the other kindreds are more shallow.

Is this a chapter you come back to, or is one read enough?
Neither more nor less than the average.

Thank you for this discussion! I have another comment to add to a post below - but want to check a book at home first. Hopefully tomorrow.


Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Of the Coming of the Elves CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 1 2013, 5:34am
    Brief comment from "Arda Reconstructed" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 1 2013, 5:55am
        I'm enjoying seeing these brief comments from AR Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 1 2013, 7:34pm
        As far as I remember, not exactly. sador Send a private message to sador Feb 12 2013, 9:33pm
            Some corrections Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 13 2013, 2:41am
                Thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Feb 13 2013, 5:12pm
                    Food for thought is good! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 13 2013, 7:00pm
                        "It needed a week's answer, or none." sador Send a private message to sador Feb 15 2013, 2:04pm
                            I'm always interested in what you have to say! // Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 15 2013, 3:51pm
    birth and other questions fo Elves elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Feb 1 2013, 4:15pm
        >>Why do you think Melkor was nibbling around the edges of the Elves and kidnapping them a few at a time? Why not enslave them all at once? They weren't exactly a fighting force. Asger Send a private message to Asger Feb 1 2013, 6:57pm
        Elves and the bad guy CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 3 2013, 6:31pm
    great post! I hope my answers measure up... telain Send a private message to telain Feb 2 2013, 8:34pm
        Doom and Deepness and Damned, sexy orcs noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 3 2013, 6:06pm
            Mandos and his secrets CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 3 2013, 9:12pm
                doomed by doom? telain Send a private message to telain Feb 5 2013, 4:32pm
        Valar and Elves CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 3 2013, 7:02pm
    Of Elves and Orcs--more info CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 3 2013, 7:56pm
    Answers at last sador Send a private message to sador Feb 11 2013, 12:16pm
        late thought about stars, and links to real Earth noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 11 2013, 2:35pm
            Oh, the next chapter disscussion HAS started... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 11 2013, 2:38pm
            Middle-earth and Real-earth telain Send a private message to telain Feb 12 2013, 4:25pm
        Answers to answers CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 15 2013, 1:51am

 
 
 

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