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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
For me there are two issues here-

pettytyrant101
Rivendell


Feb 7 2013, 3:44pm


Views: 369
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For me there are two issues here- [In reply to] Can't Post

the first is that there is certainly a perception that it is very hard on ToRn to offer any sort of complaint of PJ's Tolkien based works without what has occured here happening: 3 pages of people shouting down the OP, calling them a troll (I was accused of this myself in the past), or making silly statements that imply thinking PJ did a less than stellar job means you dont think anyone invovled with the film did anything right or were any good.

There is a good reason ToRn has a reputaion as being the home of PJ fan boys who will not tolerate any negativity about their favourite films- this thread rather indicates why that reputation persists, even if it might not be strictly true.


The second point is the problems with the films themselves.

I would agree that the OP post was not the most diplomatically worded OP ever, but that does not make the points or post, or opinion invalid either.
In my view there is much to complain about in PJ's films, particuarly as adaptations of the source material, but also just as films.
Which brings me to TH.

It is in my view a very average film that could have been a timeless classic film.
But somehow it is not, I think even the most vervant PJ fan here would not claim TH was the greatest film of all time, or even one of the greatest childrens films of all time. (I would agrue PJ's verion is not even suitable for the target audience of the book)

So the question then is why is not a classic film?
Well it is almost exaclty split 50/50 between an adaptation of the book and stuff PJ made up.

Claims that he was drawing on the appendix ect had some limited credibility before we had all seen the film, but it has vey little now we have as nothing has survived even close to intact from the appendix without huge alterations in service of the stuff PJ has made up.

Those additions PJ has made, particuarly the very artificial (in practise, feel and look) insertion of Azog into the story to give it more impetus is pretty disasterous.

During these parts PJ tries to recreate a tone suited to his LotR's film, but he has to sit it alongside whimsical moment like the Crack the Plates song. And it does not work well at all I would say, as the two tones clash from the off.

And that is leaving aside the way Azog just pops up whenever the script needs him without otherwise any rymne nor reason, nor the subpar pulp fantasy book dialogue.

I also think the opening prolgue was a mistake- I do think having old Bilbo narrate was a good idea, this is in keeping with the narrators voice present throughout the book and the conceit Tolkien got it all from the Redbook- but all the Erebor and Dale stuff, whilst pretty and bombastic is completely the wrong mood to begin TH with, Bilbo is an unsuitable narrator for that information, and its irrelevant because all the information divulged in it comes out in the telling of the story later anyway.

Its main purpose seems to be to have a big opening to the film wih some action and lots of effects. That seems to fit in with PJ's view, expressed throughout his LotR's work that his audience is largely a bit dim and will stop watching if something effects laden and blatantly exciting doesnt happen right away.

In fact its this thinking (beyond needing filler to stretch it to a trilogy) which seems to be behind the inclusion of Azog and much of the other more ridiculous unnecessary action scenes- dwarf/troll fight-bunny sled/warg chase/ -stone giants fairground ride, everything in the Goblin Town escape- Thorin proving he cant fight worth tuppence to Azog/ Bilbo killing a warg and orc, proving he is a much better fighter than Thorin, who is truelly pathetic..

For me the obvious way to deal with the difference in tone between TH and LotR's was to have Bilbo narrate the tale to a young Frodo and Sam.

This is in keeping with the book as we know Sam has been listening to Bilbo's tales all his life. And more importantly it allows for the difference in tone as it can be explaind as Bilbo telling the tale suitably for a child audience. It would also have been much shorter. And the opening sequence is far to long, as especially as nothing of any relevance beyond 'oh look its Frodo!- doesnt he look older?' happens in most of it. And as to altering the final line for no good, or even apparent reason, of the opening famous, iconic paragraph I am at a lost for any reasonable explanation. The only thing I can think of is that PJ deliberetly wanted to stick two fingers up to people like me who think his handling of Tolkien's dialogue and language throughout the adaptations has been nothing short of disgraceful.

Now these are just a few initial points, I could of course go on to give reasons and explainations for many more things about the film I thought were poorly handled or detrimental to Tolkiens original tales. (And people on here always complain those who are negative dont give thought out reasons, so I have offered some).

The point I suppose is that there should be room on any forum for a wide variety of view to be able to be expresed and debated without it becoming accussations of trolling and other unpleasantness right from the off.


(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Feb 7 2013, 3:53pm)

Subject User Time
Absolutely Horrid GiantMushroomBear Send a private message to GiantMushroomBear Feb 6 2013, 10:45pm
    Apology accepted. Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 6 2013, 10:54pm
        lol - nice reference :-) // Loresilme Send a private message to Loresilme Feb 6 2013, 11:32pm
    This thread shall be fun lol Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 6 2013, 10:56pm
    Lotta hate and no reasons. GothmogTheBalrog Send a private message to GothmogTheBalrog Feb 6 2013, 10:57pm
        Think I've seen this username trolling on IMDB. N/T Steven Van der Berg Send a private message to Steven Van der Berg Feb 6 2013, 11:04pm
            Really? Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 6 2013, 11:16pm
                no, please... Magpie Send a private message to Magpie Feb 7 2013, 12:05am
                    Excuse my Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 12:19am
            Yeah, I've also seen the username Phibbus trolling on IMDB // macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Feb 7 2013, 4:36pm
                I miss Phibbus. Thanks for tracking him down for us. // SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 8:24pm
    HOLD ON Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Feb 6 2013, 11:04pm
        Negative 5 out of 10 (-5/10). ;) // SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 6 2013, 11:10pm
    Im sorry, but this made me laugh out loud. Gorbag Send a private message to Gorbag Feb 6 2013, 11:06pm
        As strange as it may Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 6 2013, 11:09pm
        Worst of the best if you will. SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 6 2013, 11:18pm
            Ed Wood Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 6 2013, 11:21pm
                I distinctly saw directed by Alan Smithee during the credit roll. // SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 6 2013, 11:37pm
                    Which movie, TH? Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 6 2013, 11:42pm
                        If you swim with sharks, you're gonna get burned SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 6 2013, 11:49pm
                            So, GothmogTheBalrog Send a private message to GothmogTheBalrog Feb 6 2013, 11:56pm
                                If he actually means what he days Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 12:20am
                                    Tell me, now. GiantMushroomBear Send a private message to GiantMushroomBear Feb 7 2013, 1:09am
                                        I believe the use of caps is like shouting at other people. Eowyn3 Send a private message to Eowyn3 Feb 7 2013, 1:18am
                                        Is it dawn yet? Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 7 2013, 1:20am
                                            Ro!... Dawn..Turned Into Stone...?. Bombadil Send a private message to Bombadil Feb 7 2013, 1:43am
                                            indeed! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 1:45am
                                                Actually, it might be more entertaining Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 7 2013, 3:34am
                                                    Ummm... possibly off to start a pants thread? :) // Arandiel Send a private message to Arandiel Feb 7 2013, 5:50am
                                                    Hah! Bifur has his moments! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 11:02pm
                                        [crazy] Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 1:57am
                                        Ride My Seesaw JWPlatt Feb 7 2013, 5:08am
                                        Okay, sport Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7 2013, 3:37pm
                                        You certainly do have a right to express your opinions Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Feb 7 2013, 3:38pm
                                        i think.... andwise Send a private message to andwise Feb 7 2013, 4:20pm
                                        Your use of capitalization prooves you're a troll. Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 4:23pm
                                            It's worth keeping in mind Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Feb 7 2013, 8:13pm
                                                Well... macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Feb 7 2013, 8:35pm
                                                OK. Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 10:39pm
                                            So aarondirebear Send a private message to aarondirebear Feb 12 2013, 8:21pm
                                Tis a nice change of pace is all, and a bit of fun at that. SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 3:08am
                                    Nonsense threads GothmogTheBalrog Send a private message to GothmogTheBalrog Feb 7 2013, 4:13am
                                        These "criticisms" aren't just weak, they're 2 months old. // morgul lord Send a private message to morgul lord Feb 7 2013, 11:07pm
                            You are Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 12:18am
    LMAO. Then surely you hated all of the Rings adaptations as well. The opening 40 minutes to an hour of this movie AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 6 2013, 11:07pm
        weong aarondirebear Send a private message to aarondirebear Feb 12 2013, 8:03pm
    I beg to differ. Alassëa Eruvande Send a private message to Alassëa Eruvande Feb 6 2013, 11:09pm
        Mods up! // Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Feb 6 2013, 11:15pm
        I agree! Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 6 2013, 11:43pm
        Legos JWPlatt Feb 7 2013, 4:56am
            It's funny that a post like this is getting so much attention jtarkey Send a private message to jtarkey Feb 7 2013, 10:21am
                If the "film"... GiantMushroomBear Send a private message to GiantMushroomBear Feb 7 2013, 10:51am
                    Yes, I think I would! sharpened_graphite Send a private message to sharpened_graphite Feb 7 2013, 2:56pm
                        well the diference isaac Send a private message to isaac Feb 7 2013, 3:21pm
                        For me there are two issues here- pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Feb 7 2013, 3:44pm
                            I won't argue about Jackson being prone to excess... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7 2013, 4:10pm
                            It was his first post. macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Feb 7 2013, 4:47pm
                            Who are you calling "boys"? Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Feb 7 2013, 6:59pm
                            "I would agree that the OP post was not the most diplomatically worded OP ever, but that does not make the points or post, or opinion invalid either. In my view there is much to complain about in PJ's films, particuarly as adaptations of the source materi sharpened_graphite Send a private message to sharpened_graphite Feb 7 2013, 8:20pm
                                Visuals & Claustrophobia JWPlatt Feb 7 2013, 8:54pm
                                I studied graphic design at college pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Feb 7 2013, 8:58pm
                                    Agree on the "bouncing like a rubber ball", that was implausible! sharpened_graphite Send a private message to sharpened_graphite Feb 8 2013, 12:45am
                                Well, GothmogTheBalrog Send a private message to GothmogTheBalrog Feb 7 2013, 10:39pm
                            Hey, long time SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 8:34pm
                            Of course they are not. macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Feb 7 2013, 8:37pm
                                childrens book pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Feb 7 2013, 9:02pm
                            I don't agree that it is definitively not a classic, though I do agree with some other points. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 8 2013, 8:21am
                                the prologue pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Feb 8 2013, 1:36pm
                                    I disagree, in part. You are right that most of the information is elsewhere told, However, many of the finer details are left out. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 10 2013, 2:02am
                                    the prologue had to be in there because MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Feb 10 2013, 2:23am
                The thing is that peace1993 Send a private message to peace1993 Feb 7 2013, 10:52am
                    I've been personally attacked for expressing my problems with the film jtarkey Send a private message to jtarkey Feb 7 2013, 11:16am
                        I´m gonna do... isaac Send a private message to isaac Feb 7 2013, 11:33am
                Yeah, we are shamefully turning a blind eye to all the faults. Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 4:14pm
                    Can't see why we keep feeding this Vangalad Send a private message to Vangalad Feb 7 2013, 5:27pm
                        It's like picking at a scab. Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Feb 7 2013, 5:44pm
                        Because it's fun. Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Feb 7 2013, 7:05pm
                    Though I think we may disagree on some of which parts were most difficult to like, I agree here. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 8 2013, 7:45am
                Quite aarondirebear Send a private message to aarondirebear Feb 12 2013, 8:10pm
    Now I'm really mad!!! guitarzankansasfan Send a private message to guitarzankansasfan Feb 6 2013, 11:21pm
        The Last Airbender comment also deeply offended me.// Gorbag Send a private message to Gorbag Feb 6 2013, 11:29pm
        Wha. .The...? Bombadil Send a private message to Bombadil Feb 6 2013, 11:32pm
        And, and SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 6 2013, 11:44pm
        Best Shyamamamamalalalan Of The Year JWPlatt Feb 7 2013, 4:59am
            Yes, I think that's the point. SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 7:47pm
                Sure it does! arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Feb 7 2013, 7:52pm
                    That references a P-47 Thunderbolt -- SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 8:28pm
                        Gah, I mean P-40 Warhawk SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 8:42pm
                            Not that I could tell the difference...:-) arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Feb 7 2013, 8:53pm
                Ooh, I missed it! sador Send a private message to sador Feb 7 2013, 7:55pm
                    HUH shadowdog Send a private message to shadowdog Feb 7 2013, 8:14pm
                        What does SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 8:22pm
                            Absolutely horrid, isn't it? // sador Send a private message to sador Feb 7 2013, 9:00pm
                                Though I'm sure it would be SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 9:20pm
                            Well, when you are swimming with sharks, Starling Send a private message to Starling Feb 8 2013, 6:36am
                                * Buwahahahaha! // SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 8 2013, 4:56pm
                    Wow, that's all kinds of mixed metaphors... SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 7 2013, 8:20pm
                sharks with lasers Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 9:23pm
    "There is no need to get angry..." Oin's parasite Send a private message to Oin's parasite Feb 6 2013, 11:35pm
    S/he is only trying Carne Send a private message to Carne Feb 6 2013, 11:44pm
    I can already hear the sound Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Feb 6 2013, 11:49pm
    oh dear.... andwise Send a private message to andwise Feb 6 2013, 11:56pm
    Meow! // Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Feb 7 2013, 12:23am
        Love your Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 12:25am
            Thanks! :) Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Feb 7 2013, 12:31am
                Youre welcome Aragalen Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 12:34am
                ooh!! ryouko Send a private message to ryouko Feb 7 2013, 12:37am
            Sure is! Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Feb 7 2013, 9:29pm
                Ha Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 7 2013, 10:46pm
    This thread makes me want to play madlibs. Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Feb 7 2013, 12:29am
        Mmmm....Denny's....(NT) Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Feb 7 2013, 12:33am
        *Mods way up!* // Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Feb 7 2013, 6:41pm
        Ooo lemme try elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Feb 7 2013, 6:50pm
            Excellent! // Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Feb 7 2013, 7:02pm
            Awesome! Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Feb 8 2013, 7:41pm
                Bomby.. years ago was the Go-to guy about LoTR.. Bombadil Send a private message to Bombadil Feb 8 2013, 9:06pm
    What can men do against such reckless hate? Eowyn3 Send a private message to Eowyn3 Feb 7 2013, 12:59am
        Menfolk can go off and do...something manly... Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 7 2013, 1:10am
    ??? Glum Send a private message to Glum Feb 7 2013, 1:59am
        Simple math GiantMushroomBear Send a private message to GiantMushroomBear Feb 7 2013, 11:00am
            You are just skimming the surface and complaining peace1993 Send a private message to peace1993 Feb 7 2013, 11:30am
                This is what I'm talking about exactly. jtarkey Send a private message to jtarkey Feb 7 2013, 12:01pm
                    I do have problems with the film Estel78 Send a private message to Estel78 Feb 7 2013, 1:00pm
            Over-simplification... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7 2013, 3:46pm
    Been eating too many giant mushrooms, bear. sevilodorf Send a private message to sevilodorf Feb 7 2013, 2:30am
    Which movie are you disparaging? Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Feb 7 2013, 4:34am
    Now wait just a cotton-pickin' minute Old Toby Send a private message to Old Toby Feb 7 2013, 5:27am
    New, improved version of original post! Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 7 2013, 5:34am
        You actually spent time doing that? GothmogTheBalrog Send a private message to GothmogTheBalrog Feb 7 2013, 5:37am
            Excel is my friend. Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Feb 7 2013, 6:55am
        What's frightening is.... Old Toby Send a private message to Old Toby Feb 7 2013, 5:42am
        I always try to get my decent can-toys through sorry Denny's. Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Feb 7 2013, 6:47pm
    His name says it all peace1993 Send a private message to peace1993 Feb 7 2013, 7:11am
    ouch jimmyfenn Send a private message to jimmyfenn Feb 7 2013, 10:53am
    Fine by me... Angharad73 Send a private message to Angharad73 Feb 7 2013, 12:58pm
    If you don't mind I'm just going to give Gandalf a ring, so he can turn you to stone!// Radagast-Aiwendil Send a private message to Radagast-Aiwendil Feb 7 2013, 12:59pm
    Don't worry, everyone fails once in a lifetime. xxxyyy Send a private message to xxxyyy Feb 7 2013, 3:25pm
    Can you even call this an opinion? painjoiker Send a private message to painjoiker Feb 7 2013, 5:18pm
        Bomby will say it.. again.. Bombadil Send a private message to Bombadil Feb 8 2013, 12:02am
            Does this apply to everyone? imin Send a private message to imin Feb 8 2013, 12:55am
            Amen, Bomby. Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Feb 8 2013, 4:37pm
                O.o you wouldn't dare! SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Feb 8 2013, 7:06pm
                    Yeah Nolan Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Feb 8 2013, 9:01pm
            Movies and critics billzy2 Send a private message to billzy2 Feb 10 2013, 5:08am
    Sure it's not the... MasterOrc Send a private message to MasterOrc Feb 8 2013, 1:37am
    Insults and rude comments have been deleted or edited out of this thread Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Feb 8 2013, 3:58am
        Thanks Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Feb 8 2013, 4:03am
    agreed. aarondirebear Send a private message to aarondirebear Feb 12 2013, 7:59pm

 
 
 

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