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telain
Lorien
Jan 22, 8:25pm
Views: 256
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Probably because those two don't seem to create anything, or at least create anything with great effort and care like Aule and Yavanna. The chapter is entirely about creating and the ethics of doing so.
I really like this answer -- if we are looking at the first few chapters of The Silmarilion as creation stories, then it makes perfect sense to talk about these two first. I am intrigued by the ethics angle, so I'll run with that a bit. As I see it -- from this chapter -- we have the following options:
a) create beings with minds of their own (up until now Iluvatar only, though Aule is responsible now for the Dwarves)
b) create beings subject to your will (what the Dwarves might have been if not "enspirited"(?) by Iluvatar; orcs? other evil creatures?)
c) create beings with unknown and/or limited sentience (Yavanna's olvar and kelvar)
(did I miss any?)
So my question is, Did Iluvatar "enspirit" (i.e., give spirit/fire to) the Dwarves as a warning -- or the very least as a double-edged sword? Sure, now Aule has someone to teach his craft to, but these beings have minds of their own and may do anything -- for good or for ill. As their creator, Aule (if he looks up from the smithing-table from time to time) must (I would think) feel responsible for what happens to them, as well as their actions for or against others. Is this a weight that Iluvatar himself felt only he should bear, but now that the Dwarves are in play, he has decided to make an example of Aule? Is Iluvatar really being merciful as Yavanna says?
As for Yavanna, as you say, her creations grow; their actions are never seen as evil and are generally seen as good (if it is a given that all of Nature is, as movie-Meriadoc says "green and good"). Obviously it is seen as ethically, morally wrong to create creatures subject only to the will of the Creator. So, who has the greater ethical dilemma? Is it more of a conundrum to create creatures that will be dominated by others, or to create creatures that will do the dominating? Why is Yavanna so worried -- if Elves and Men are in the Song, would it not be prudent of her to accept the situation, or does she have a good point?
thanks so much for all your great thoughts, PhantomS! more later!
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Of Aulë and Yavanna
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telain
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Jan 20, 6:00pm
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I do like the last lines of this chapter ;-)
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FlyingSerkis
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Jan 20, 9:36pm
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Aluë and Yavanna
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masinger
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Jan 20, 10:46pm
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now that you mention it...
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telain
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Jan 21, 1:48pm
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what are Valar "children" anyway?
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telain
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Jan 21, 1:33pm
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Dharma and Greg
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PhantomS
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Jan 21, 2:52pm
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of ethical creation
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telain
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Jan 22, 8:25pm
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Counterfeit creatures
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noWizardme
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Jan 27, 2:45pm
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I suspect counterfeit Dwarves are hobbits--beware!/
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CuriousG
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Jan 28, 3:38am
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Of Valar and Marriage Counseling
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CuriousG
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Jan 21, 7:30pm
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that last line...
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telain
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Jan 23, 8:30pm
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I'm going to jump on that comparison!
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FlyingSerkis
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Jan 23, 9:25pm
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Great insights from both of you.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 23, 9:36pm
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thanks!
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telain
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Jan 24, 6:39pm
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Noble goals, dropping it stylistically, selfishness and retrofitted Ents
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noWizardme
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Jan 24, 10:16pm
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Whateth dost thou speaketh of?
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telain
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Jan 24, 10:59pm
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Okay, back to Dwarves, or Telain complaineth to Eru
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CuriousG
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Jan 25, 12:08am
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absolutely no complaints here!
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telain
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Jan 27, 12:45am
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Begging dwarves beggar belief?
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noWizardme
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Jan 27, 12:38pm
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An Ent and a Dwarf walk into a bar (it has to be tried :) )
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noWizardme
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Jan 27, 1:30pm
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I like the 2nd one best./
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CuriousG
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Jan 28, 3:37am
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Some passages are to be found in the original Silmarillion, and others ent, as you might say
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squire
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Jan 25, 12:58pm
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The problem with Ents
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CuriousG
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Jan 24, 6:01pm
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good points!
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telain
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Jan 24, 6:44pm
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Yavanna is to Galadriel as who is to whom?
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CuriousG
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Jan 24, 6:57pm
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very interesting questions!
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elostirion74
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Jan 22, 9:32pm
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Maiar of Aulë and Yavanna
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 25, 12:54am
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Superb connection!//
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CuriousG
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Jan 25, 1:34am
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Then again, Yavanna...
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 25, 1:46am
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superb connection seconded!
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telain
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Jan 27, 12:56am
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Fall, Mortalty and the Machine
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noWizardme
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Jan 27, 12:24pm
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Creativity gone amiss
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CuriousG
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Jan 28, 4:24am
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Saruman!
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noWizardme
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Jan 28, 5:26pm
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Don't stop there with the editing
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CuriousG
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Jan 28, 5:49pm
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"creativity gone amiss" and sadly...
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telain
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Jan 28, 5:57pm
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and on to the next chapter...
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noWizardme
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Feb 3, 5:08pm
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Insights from "Arda Reconstructed"
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CuriousG
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Jan 28, 3:50am
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Interesting!
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telain
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Jan 28, 5:38pm
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A long post went down the cyber-drain!
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sador
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Feb 7, 2:51pm
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The writing is still very much JRRT's
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 7, 3:55pm
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