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of ethical creation

telain
Rohan

Jan 22 2013, 8:25pm


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of ethical creation [In reply to] Can't Post
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Probably because those two don't seem to create anything, or at least create anything with great effort and care like Aule and Yavanna. The chapter is entirely about creating and the ethics of doing so.
I really like this answer -- if we are looking at the first few chapters of The Silmarilion as creation stories, then it makes perfect sense to talk about these two first. I am intrigued by the ethics angle, so I'll run with that a bit. As I see it -- from this chapter -- we have the following options:

a) create beings with minds of their own (up until now Iluvatar only, though Aule is responsible now for the Dwarves)
b) create beings subject to your will (what the Dwarves might have been if not "enspirited"(?) by Iluvatar; orcs? other evil creatures?)
c) create beings with unknown and/or limited sentience (Yavanna's olvar and kelvar)

(did I miss any?)

So my question is, Did Iluvatar "enspirit" (i.e., give spirit/fire to) the Dwarves as a warning -- or the very least as a double-edged sword? Sure, now Aule has someone to teach his craft to, but these beings have minds of their own and may do anything -- for good or for ill. As their creator, Aule (if he looks up from the smithing-table from time to time) must (I would think) feel responsible for what happens to them, as well as their actions for or against others. Is this a weight that Iluvatar himself felt only he should bear, but now that the Dwarves are in play, he has decided to make an example of Aule? Is Iluvatar really being merciful as Yavanna says?

As for Yavanna, as you say, her creations grow; their actions are never seen as evil and are generally seen as good (if it is a given that all of Nature is, as movie-Meriadoc says "green and good"). Obviously it is seen as ethically, morally wrong to create creatures subject only to the will of the Creator. So, who has the greater ethical dilemma? Is it more of a conundrum to create creatures that will be dominated by others, or to create creatures that will do the dominating? Why is Yavanna so worried -- if Elves and Men are in the Song, would it not be prudent of her to accept the situation, or does she have a good point?

thanks so much for all your great thoughts, PhantomS! more later!


Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Of Aulë and Yavanna telain Send a private message to telain Jan 20 2013, 6:00pm
    I do like the last lines of this chapter ;-) FlyingSerkis Send a private message to FlyingSerkis Jan 20 2013, 9:36pm
        Aluë and Yavanna masinger Send a private message to masinger Jan 20 2013, 10:46pm
            now that you mention it... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 21 2013, 1:48pm
        what are Valar "children" anyway? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 21 2013, 1:33pm
    Dharma and Greg PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Jan 21 2013, 2:52pm
        of ethical creation telain Send a private message to telain Jan 22 2013, 8:25pm
            Counterfeit creatures noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 2:45pm
                I suspect counterfeit Dwarves are hobbits--beware!/ CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:38am
    Of Valar and Marriage Counseling CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 21 2013, 7:30pm
        that last line... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 23 2013, 8:30pm
            I'm going to jump on that comparison! FlyingSerkis Send a private message to FlyingSerkis Jan 23 2013, 9:25pm
                Great insights from both of you.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 23 2013, 9:36pm
                thanks! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 6:39pm
                    Noble goals, dropping it stylistically, selfishness and retrofitted Ents noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 24 2013, 10:16pm
                        Whateth dost thou speaketh of? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 10:59pm
                            Okay, back to Dwarves, or Telain complaineth to Eru CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 25 2013, 12:08am
                                absolutely no complaints here! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 27 2013, 12:45am
                                    Begging dwarves beggar belief? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 12:38pm
                                An Ent and a Dwarf walk into a bar (it has to be tried :) ) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 1:30pm
                                    I like the 2nd one best./ CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:37am
                        Some passages are to be found in the original Silmarillion, and others ent, as you might say squire Send a private message to squire Jan 25 2013, 12:58pm
            The problem with Ents CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 24 2013, 6:01pm
                good points! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 6:44pm
            Yavanna is to Galadriel as who is to whom? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 24 2013, 6:57pm
    very interesting questions! elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Jan 22 2013, 9:32pm
    Maiar of Aulë and Yavanna Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 25 2013, 12:54am
        Superb connection!// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 25 2013, 1:34am
            Then again, Yavanna... Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 25 2013, 1:46am
                superb connection seconded! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 27 2013, 12:56am
                    Fall, Mortalty and the Machine noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 12:24pm
                        Creativity gone amiss CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 4:24am
                            Saruman! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 28 2013, 5:26pm
                                Don't stop there with the editing CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 5:49pm
                                "creativity gone amiss" and sadly... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 28 2013, 5:57pm
                                    and on to the next chapter... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 3 2013, 5:08pm
    Insights from "Arda Reconstructed" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:50am
        Interesting! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 28 2013, 5:38pm
    A long post went down the cyber-drain! sador Send a private message to sador Feb 7 2013, 2:51pm
        The writing is still very much JRRT's Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 7 2013, 3:55pm

 
 
 

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