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Dharma and Greg

PhantomS
Rohan


Jan 21 2013, 2:52pm


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Dharma and Greg [In reply to] Can't Post

Why these two Valar before, say, Manwë and Varda?

Probably because those two don't seem to create anything, or at least create anything with great effort and care like Aule and Yavanna. The chapter is entirely about creating and the ethics of doing so.

In what ways were the Dwarves similar to Elves and Men? In what ways different? Do the differences lie in Aulë’s vague interpretation of the coming Children, or do they arise from his own characteristics (or both?) How does this (does this?) affect your reactions to Dwarves in TH and LoTR?

They seem to be , as Tokien says 'a race apart'. All we know about them is based on their interactions with other races and none from an 'insider'. They seem to have adapted to the world at large rather than imposed their will on it (apart from the mountains, which Aule made himself anyway). so there is an aura of mystery and uncertainty around Dwarves when others are concerned of them. The similarities come from their origins as free, speaking people on two legs-after that everything diverges wildly.


What do you make of this statement? A further association between Aulë and machinery/technology/craft? Are the Dwarves at this stage more like machines or more like slaves? Is this an explanation for an ability for evil to “create” beings, (i.e., could orcs really be just “mindless rabble”?) or does it imply the importance of intent (i.e., machines are evil if you do evil things with them)? Something else?


Morgoth literally imbued himself into the Orcs; Sauron is basically controlling a biological weapon that can reproduce itself, animated by a shred of Morgoth's power. They are not mindless but the will that drives them to live is not their own, which is what separates them from the Free Folk or the Men who serve the Dark Lords. They may chatter and hiss and even sing, but they do so with Morgoth lurking in the back of their head somewhat....

The Dwarves were not robots but could only be extensions of Aule' s willpower. As Aule did not go as far as Morgoth with the biology, he was forgiven by the One.

Why do you think Ilúvatar gives the Dwarves life? Is his statement above regarding strife prophetic or decreed? Why does he say “children of my choice” instead of “children of my making”? Surely it was also his choice to save the Dwarves and to give them life?"

Here comes the song about the Plan- which originally contained only Elves and Men (and animals). Eru has amended the plan by adding a new stanza to the poem, but now the song sounds a little off-key at times; like how Treebeard added Hobbits to the Long List, but with more potential for misunderstanding. Elves and Men weren't even built to interact with Dwarves- luckily for them Aule made the Dwarves adaptable to other races instead.


What is she saying? What are/is her emotions here? Jealousy? Fear? Worry? Anger? Something else?


Aule and Yavanna both took part in the song that created Elves and Men, and created them together with the other Valar and Maiar. it was all OK for Aule to build mountains and other rocky things while Yavanna tended trees and small animals- the Elves and Men would treasure all of them as A/Y had a hand in their making. However, since Yavanna had no say in the Dwarves' mentality and needs they are built completely disregarding her concerns. She is noticably sarcastic and upset, as this is one of the few things Aule has made without consulting her at all. She doesn't realize though, that both Elves and Men will also hurt the forests and animals later as they too have free will.

Why does she seek out Manwë? What is meant by his response to her?

Manwe is the king of the Valar and the only one (besides Mandos) who knows what Eru is willing. His response is diplomatic enough, and since he would know why Eru gave life to the Dwarves, he's not about to share it with Yavanna just yet. he offers her a compromise by creating his Eagle corps and giving her the Ents, but the will of the One stays.

Ilúvatar, Manwë, and Aulë seem, in varying degrees, to be rather dismissive of Yavanna -- do you agree? If you do agree, why would they be so dismissive of her? Furthermore, why would Tolkien set up this relational hierarchy -- especially since he was such a great lover of nature and trees? Are the Ents “Shepherds of the Trees” a worthy compromise?

While Tolkien loved trees and forests, that won't mean his characters would. Yavanna seems pretty demanding, getting two new species of creatures to do her bidding and still unhappy. Yet Eru and Aule are creators while Yavanna is a grower- their things just up and go, while she has to wait for her trees to grow and her grass to green.


Is this passage in reference to “Of Aulë and Yavanna”? Is it evidence of some kind of peace offering, Aulë to Yavanna, that the dwarves love and tend stone as much as gardeners love and tend Yavanna’s olvar?


I don't see it that way at all; in the context of that discussion Legolas is quite unflattering about those caves as Gimli is about Fangorn Forest. That passage is a rare insight about how Dwarves can be coaxed into prose and love, as Gloin was when talking about Erebor to Frodo. Legolas offers the pro-Yavanna proposal that a family of Dwarves will destroy the caves by mining, but Gimli retorts that they would treat it like a work of art and probably chip a bit here and there. It's more of an arguement between a Dwarf and an Elf rather than two of the Valar; Gloin even says that they've lost some smithing skills and have started shaping stone like the pros- the love of art is probably reflected in his son.


To what is she referring? Orc? Trolls? Flies? Slime-mould? Are the Dwarves particularly resistant to Melkor, either in battle or otherwise?

As Morgoth made the world his Ring, everything that grows is tainted with his spark in some way or another- disease, decay and other things were not in Yavanna's plan for the kelvar and olvar, and the burning and stripping of the forests was probably not good for her either. it must be painful to see things you've raised since seedling days die prematurely or deformed.

The Dwarves were built to survive the dark and damp as well as intense fires/colds- things Melkor was very specialized in. Their age is the amazing thing, almost always up to 250 years regardless of condition (other than being killed of course). The Dwarves also are incredibly difficult to convince of anything. Being a race apart also protects them from the lies and division that englufed Elves and Men, though not resistant to personal taunts. Morgoth cannot lie to them or undo their mansions, so they are relatively safe from him.


Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Of Aulë and Yavanna telain Send a private message to telain Jan 20 2013, 6:00pm
    I do like the last lines of this chapter ;-) FlyingSerkis Send a private message to FlyingSerkis Jan 20 2013, 9:36pm
        Aluë and Yavanna masinger Send a private message to masinger Jan 20 2013, 10:46pm
            now that you mention it... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 21 2013, 1:48pm
        what are Valar "children" anyway? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 21 2013, 1:33pm
    Dharma and Greg PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Jan 21 2013, 2:52pm
        of ethical creation telain Send a private message to telain Jan 22 2013, 8:25pm
            Counterfeit creatures noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 2:45pm
                I suspect counterfeit Dwarves are hobbits--beware!/ CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:38am
    Of Valar and Marriage Counseling CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 21 2013, 7:30pm
        that last line... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 23 2013, 8:30pm
            I'm going to jump on that comparison! FlyingSerkis Send a private message to FlyingSerkis Jan 23 2013, 9:25pm
                Great insights from both of you.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 23 2013, 9:36pm
                thanks! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 6:39pm
                    Noble goals, dropping it stylistically, selfishness and retrofitted Ents noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 24 2013, 10:16pm
                        Whateth dost thou speaketh of? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 10:59pm
                            Okay, back to Dwarves, or Telain complaineth to Eru CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 25 2013, 12:08am
                                absolutely no complaints here! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 27 2013, 12:45am
                                    Begging dwarves beggar belief? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 12:38pm
                                An Ent and a Dwarf walk into a bar (it has to be tried :) ) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 1:30pm
                                    I like the 2nd one best./ CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:37am
                        Some passages are to be found in the original Silmarillion, and others ent, as you might say squire Send a private message to squire Jan 25 2013, 12:58pm
            The problem with Ents CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 24 2013, 6:01pm
                good points! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 6:44pm
            Yavanna is to Galadriel as who is to whom? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 24 2013, 6:57pm
    very interesting questions! elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Jan 22 2013, 9:32pm
    Maiar of Aulë and Yavanna Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 25 2013, 12:54am
        Superb connection!// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 25 2013, 1:34am
            Then again, Yavanna... Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 25 2013, 1:46am
                superb connection seconded! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 27 2013, 12:56am
                    Fall, Mortalty and the Machine noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 12:24pm
                        Creativity gone amiss CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 4:24am
                            Saruman! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 28 2013, 5:26pm
                                Don't stop there with the editing CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 5:49pm
                                "creativity gone amiss" and sadly... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 28 2013, 5:57pm
                                    and on to the next chapter... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 3 2013, 5:08pm
    Insights from "Arda Reconstructed" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:50am
        Interesting! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 28 2013, 5:38pm
    A long post went down the cyber-drain! sador Send a private message to sador Feb 7 2013, 2:51pm
        The writing is still very much JRRT's Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 7 2013, 3:55pm

 
 
 

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