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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
external chronology

Grey Havens

Jan 20 2013, 5:19pm

Views: 1089
external chronology [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, so Tolkien decides in the 1960s that Celebrimbor is Noldor and founder of Eregion, but wasn´t that stuff about Galadriel and Ergegion in the UT written later than in the 60s? Early 70s maybe (of course he had not that much time anymore). I just thought his writings on Galadriel were his last on ME (I read that somewhere)

To clarify: in the 1960s Tolkien published that the Feanorean Celebrimbor was 'Lord of Eregion' (second edition of The Lord of the Rings). He does not publish 'founder' but neither is there anything about Celebrimbor wresting power from anyone. The stuff about Galadriel co-founding Eregion, being Amroth's mother and so on, hails from the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn which dates to the later 1950s.

I too think that much of that chapter in the UT was abandoned (like Amrod being her son, like you mentioned, but that detail too?) but still Christopher notes: 'That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration in the narrative of the Silmarillion is evident; but that my father doubtless intended to do.'

This statement from Christopher Tolkien concerns the very late adumbrated tale removing Galadriel from the Rebellion. I can't agree that Tolkien necssarily intended to do this unless it can be shown that he had remembered or considered what he had already published in The Road Goes Ever On (RGEO), and still intended to contradict or revise it.

In other words, this late version might speak to intent of course, but to my mind an ultimate decision should truly consider already published material, and so far we have no evidence that Tolkien ever did so here. That the tale remained in an 'adumbrated' state might possibly reflect that Tolkien did, at some point, realize that RGEO would not easily allow this major revision, but obviously there could be other reasons too, and that much is pure speculation.

Christopher Tolkien goes on to note that Galadriel's story in The Silmarillion could be radically alterted, as no Silmarillion account had been published at the time, however he seems to forget The Road Goes Ever On here: meaning he does note RGEO right after his 'On the other hand' but if I recall correctly he only mentions (at least here) the contradiction with respect to Celeborn -- not the contradiction with respect to Galadriel had already been in print as a leader in the Rebellion, and specially banned for this too.

Speaking of abandoned ideas, which version was abandoned? Celebrimbor giving Galadriel the Elessar or Olorin giving Galadriel the Elessar from Yavanna?

Not that you said otherwise but I think both versions were supposed to be internal variations, not external variations. In other words, both tales were heard, or existed in some form, within Middle-eath, and so which was true was to be left up to the reader.

The note at the end might be read as a revision of the whole 'two story' idea I guess, but I think it more likely revises the second version only, removing Enerdhil for Celebrimbor. Christopher Tolkien seems to confirm this in his following commentary, in my opinion. However remember that Celebrimbor was ultimately going to be published as a Feanorean, so (I think) this too might become problematic when we look back at the note at the end of The Elessar text.

I think The Elessar text has some problems too Smile

For example, why would Galadriel 'need' the stone in the Third Age (from Gandalf) when she could employ Nenya at this time?

Unless Tolkien meant this question to arise, possibly giving more weight to the Celebrimbor version.

(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 20 2013, 5:26pm)

Subject User Time
Chief matter? Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 18 2013, 7:28pm
    I vote #2 CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 18 2013, 8:14pm
        Tolkiens mind Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 18 2013, 8:24pm
            Greatness vs quantity CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 18 2013, 10:07pm
                Who would? Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 18 2013, 11:16pm
                    Second Age mistory (mist plus history) Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 19 2013, 1:49am
                        Eregion Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 19 2013, 7:53am
                            Another example Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 19 2013, 8:20am
                            Galadriel of Eregion Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 19 2013, 6:18pm
                                Eregion Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 19 2013, 8:03pm
                                    external chronology Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 20 2013, 5:19pm
                                        Galadriel Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Jan 20 2013, 7:46pm


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