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sador
Half-elven
Jan 20 2013, 4:27pm
Views: 1047
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Still within a fortnight of your post...
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Both some comments and some answers: Some of the Ainur decide to dwell in the world, and become known as the Valar. The Maiar are also Ainur. And I suspect only the lesser Ainur which are alligned to one of the Valar received that name - so there might very well be some Ainur in Arda who have come as free agents. Yes, of course I have the old merry fellow with the silly boots in mind. who mostly come in pairs – a male Valar and a female Valier. But the term for a mixed-gender bunch of them is “Valar” As far as I understand, the singular is "Vala", and is gender-neutral. Valier is a group of female Valar. It's just the bias of a male-dominated society which uses for a mixed-gender bunch the masculine form. How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list? Well, my initial reaction to the whole book was dismay. The translation of The Lord of the Rings I've read at first had no appendices, and I really could make nothing at all from The Silmarillion. I somehow finished it, without being any wiser than I began. Only after discovering the appendices, and Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth, I could tackle it for the second time, treating it as a study in some esoteric lore. With that approach, I've actually found the Valaquenta very helpful, and the realisation that quite a bit of the information is not necessary for the rest of the book (for instance, checking Nessa in Foster's Guide) was pretty encouraging. I can’t think of many modern books which would include a chapter like this, in this style, and in this place. Scholarly books might. And printed versions of plays are often preceded by a list of the Dramatis Personnae. In that chapter, we meet Boromir, Gimli and Legolas for the first time; meet Elrond for the first time Well, we've met Elrond a chapter before, and learn nothing of Gimli but his family. But that's just niggling. More to the point, Elrond has been talked of several times before - so he's not like Legolas or Boromir, a new, strtange character foisted upon us all of a sudden. Recasting Valaquenta as dialogue between football commentators would either be amusing, or literary hooliganism (or both) – anyone want to try? I've looked it your profile, and noticed that you are Brittish. That's imprtant, to know what football you are talking about. But no, I'll skip that one, thanks. my wife studied classics and found it difficult to love a chapter in Homer’s Illiad which is basically a list of the ships setting out to Troy. Book II! That's right - it isn't very entertaining. Perusing a map of ancient Greece might help you get a feel of the economic and political background of the Trojan War - but yes, I can feel her frustration. The Bible has lists of people who beget other people. Once again - these are needed to either establish lineage (something you need to follow closely in the Silmarillion), or to explain the map of the Near East. But indeed - not the best reading material for a layman, or a schoolgirl (my daughter had to chew a few of them just recently). I imagine Homer being sung, recited or read to people who might trace their ancestry back to these semi-mythical heroes. So, telling the tale in Ithaca, say, you’d better include those ships (“A shout out to those brave boys from Ithaca!”). That too. Nice idea! But I'm not sure how many of the people of the late Dorian period could actually trace their ancestry to Mycanaean heros? New Testament writers, I think, were eager to prove that Jesus is of the House of David But that's just the list at the beginning of two books. Those lists appear a lot in the Bible - long before that time. does JRRT have an agenda here other than giving us information we as readers need to progress with the story? For example, does a full listing seem appropriate given that it is quite likely what his literary models of ancient texts would do. Emphatically yes. I note that (at least in my edition) we get the lists as “flat” prose... rhymes seem a reasonable way for mostly-pre literate cultures to memorize Valaquenta-like information, so perhaps would be in keeping with the genre. Yes, it is odd. It looks as if Tolkien was trying to write this as a monograph, rather than a rhyme of lore. Or do the Elves not need to memorize lists of Valar in elvenschool, since their elders met the gods personally? I always think of this as a "translation" from an Exilic work, for the benefit of the Numenoreans, Dunedain or even Hobbits. Athiesm, come to think of it would probably be pretty impractical for the Noldar. Is Athiesm about practicality? As an alternative suggestion for a game, anyone fancy a competition to come up with the best mnemonic for the names of the Valar? Oh - Isee some good efforts were made! How do you react to authors deploying so much invented terminology (Tolkien specifically, other authors for comparison)? I haven't seen anyone do it as successfully as Tolkien. But then, how many had wasted so many years on this kind of invented mythology? Is that risky (you might give up) or do you like it, or does it not bother you? Yes, but I'm used to it. In my view, the Lord of the Rings is given a lot of depth and solidity by the fact that JRRT had already worked a lot of this Silmarilion material out. So he could give offhand references to a great, hidden body of lore, to great literary effect. I fully agree. Or, given that he may have had little expectation that we’d ever be reading Valaquenta, is this a moot point I think he did hope it would be. The Valar have gender... Too long for me by now. I will continus it tommorow.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Valaquenta
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 12:58pm
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No turning back
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 1:35pm
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thank you!
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:45pm
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link to our earlier discussion of Ainulindale
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 2:54pm
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just posted there... and thank you!//
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telain
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Jan 8 2013, 6:12pm
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I look forward to your discussion post...
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:43pm
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Experts definitely not needed!
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 3:24pm
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A note on book "Arda Reconstructed" by Voronwe the Faithful
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm
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"DO keep up, Samwise Gamgee!" :)- Nah, you've been great//
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 4:39pm
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I have that book as well.
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 5:50pm
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That makes me quite happy!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jan 8 2013, 4:32pm
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Oops, I seem to have started....
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:22pm
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...and well, one thing led to another... (not for serious readers)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:34pm
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Great post! ; mnemonic
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 8:16pm
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An org chart for the Valar
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:18pm
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Ok, this is just me quite at random entering the world of the Reading Room, but..
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 1:01pm
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I see what you mean
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noWizardme
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Jan 12 2013, 5:23pm
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Ah! of course. Sorry, thought the lines meant that they came about -by- Eru ;) //
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 8:58pm
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every time I see "org chart", I read "orc chart!"//
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telain
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Jan 13 2013, 11:42pm
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Nice mnemonics, curiousG //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:36pm
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Mandos: Hand of Fate
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:38am
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*mods up* //
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Jan 12 2013, 5:29am
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"The Valaquenta underneath the bough, a squishy chair, Corvoisier, and thou, lurking beside me in the Reading Room."
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squire
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Jan 7 2013, 9:09pm
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...this forum is world enough?
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:35pm
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First of all...
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Eldineth
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Jan 7 2013, 11:11pm
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Eldineth, I would never have guessed from your post that you were not a native English speaker! Well-written post.! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:34pm
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Thank you, noWizardme!
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Eldineth
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Jan 9 2013, 1:11am
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Your English is terrific! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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Thank you!
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:26pm
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I agree with Squire about the Melkorina
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 11:21pm
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I think this is where I gave up on my first reading…
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Mim
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Jan 7 2013, 11:29pm
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The Shadow of Your Posts
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 1:56pm
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Hello! I'm new here and am quite happy to find that I managed to arrive when an electronic Silmarillion-reading party is getting started!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 9 2013, 6:33am
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Neat idea about Nienna and Melkor
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squire
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Jan 9 2013, 11:23am
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Evil bachelors
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CuriousG
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Jan 9 2013, 1:50pm
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"obsidian bunker" and other matters...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 5:43pm
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No evil women
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 5:49pm
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There was also Thuringwethil
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DanielLB
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Jan 9 2013, 6:04pm
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Females at large
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 6:22pm
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Sure...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:10pm
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Sorry, I'm probably dragging you off subject...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 8:13pm
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Amazorcs?
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 12:53am
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No beards, but . . . .
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 2:48am
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Married gods and single heroes
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 2:55pm
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Good point.
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:56pm
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Surely Orcs are a construction of Sauron?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:40am
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Perhaps...
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:35pm
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You assume wrongly...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 10 2013, 4:16pm
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Young goblins as a gollum-snack; good point. Though just to be awkward....
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 4:37pm
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Orc sex
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 5:59pm
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You probably just greatly increased the number of hits this thread will get from search engines :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 6:11pm
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Orc domesticity
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 7:54pm
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Great point: "really evil of heart" = incompatible with babies
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 10:08pm
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Yay for electronic magic!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 11:41pm
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Sam vs. the Valaquenta (stylistically I mean)
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 1:27pm
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I meant "the word 'valar' appears only 3 times in the text ( not inc. appendices)" //
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 4:47pm
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Out of which, only two are clear references.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:54pm
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"The Elder King"
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 1:09pm
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Actually, Bilbo.
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sador
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Jan 27 2013, 10:11pm
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"light-years" away from the subject, but...
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:29pm
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Wow! I did start something there!
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The Gardener
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Jan 11 2013, 6:48am
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There's a lively discussion of Orc origins on this thread: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=562557#562557 //
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noWizardme
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Jan 27 2013, 2:54pm
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I just don't think
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Rostron2
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Jan 10 2013, 10:23pm
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You still have Bolg Azog's son. //
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:51pm
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Wait...
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:25pm
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The reserves
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:29pm
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Arien and Galadriel
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Plurmo
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Jan 9 2013, 6:31pm
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Female evil...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:18pm
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On Lists...
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beren_boy
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Jan 9 2013, 10:01am
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List of kings
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acheron
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Jan 9 2013, 1:30pm
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Male - Female - and Melkor
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The Gardener
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Jan 9 2013, 4:46pm
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Yes, I always think Elves call out to Varda the way Catholics do to Mary.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list?
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Rostron2
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Jan 9 2013, 6:19pm
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Varda, not starry-eyed for Melkor; on being a single Vala/ier
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:26am
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Beware the lonely
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:36am
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Hmmm
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 5:30am
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the importance of being social
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:51pm
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Fab discussion! Valar Rhyme for Hobbit Children
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hanne
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Jan 14 2013, 1:18pm
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Excellent! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 1:26pm
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Truly beautiful and excellent--thanks for posting it.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 14 2013, 1:56pm
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thank you both - am happy you enjoyed! //
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hanne
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Jan 15 2013, 2:43am
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Mods up.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:56pm
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Doesn't it bother anyone else...
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Etarre
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Jan 22 2013, 10:17pm
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Post away- we have no "last posting date" :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 22 2013, 10:26pm
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A picture of the Valar in all their might and glory? Got it. It ain't beautiful, but it is fan art
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squire
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Jan 23 2013, 2:08am
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Pre-feminist Tolkien
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CuriousG
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Jan 23 2013, 4:57pm
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Still within a fortnight of your post...
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sador
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Jan 20 2013, 4:27pm
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the Secret Fire
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acheron
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Jan 8 2013, 12:27am
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The "V" Chapter--get ready for "F"s; and, more on Olorin
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:53am
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M for Bad?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:57am
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when do you want to start the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 3:42pm
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Ready for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 4:31pm
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