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immortal orks

Elthir
Rohan

Jan 16 2013, 4:21pm


Views: 268
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immortal orks [In reply to] Can't Post

What we can say is that the 'immortality question' was one Tolkien posed to himself. And I think it shows that he found the matter somewhat problematic. Tolkien noted (text VIII):

'It also seems clear (...) that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. [added later: The latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]'

'In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal' in the Elvish sense? Or Trolls? (...)'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring




So here we have two concerns: immortality, and the possibility of Morgoth not just corrupting beings, but making this corruption a heritable state -- in other words (as I read this), what will the children be if corrupted Elves [who have become Orcs] breed? Elves or Orcs? If Orcs, Morgoth has made his corruption a heritable state, and if this is true, Elves seem an unlikely source to JRRT himself (or at least this seems part of the reason anyway).



Men would solve the immortality question, at least. And there might be other concerns. Tolkien notes (Morgoth's Ring) that Morgoth could so dominate some Orcs that they seemed like 'puppets' with no will of their own, some even slaying themselves when the Dark Lord was defeated, for example. And in a late note Tolkien explained...

'Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves), could also be reduced to a like condition.'

JRRT, late note attached to text X 'Orcs from Men'




If Orcs could be so dominated, it makes sense (to me anyway) that the source for Orcs could be so dominated as well, but here it's said that neither Elves nor Dwarves could be reduced to such a notable condition. One could argue that once Elves became Orcs they could be 'absorbed' in this way, but I also think that Men were -- generally speaking now -- more easily swayed to the will of the Dark Lords.


Tolkien even notes, in text X [he had adjusted the chronology to allow for Men to be the source for Orcs, although admitted that it was still not without its difficulties]:

'This view of the origin of orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs -- and Men.'




In my opinion, in general Men were already 'closer' to Orcs than Elves were, and notably I think, Men could be found in Morgoth's forces as well as Sauron's.

Not all Men of course! But again, in general.

Subject User Time
Origin of Orcs Eowyn3 Send a private message to Eowyn3 Jan 16 2013, 1:37am
    I'd be interested to know why that bothers you. Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Jan 16 2013, 2:51am
        Origin of Orcs Eowyn3 Send a private message to Eowyn3 Jan 16 2013, 3:56am
            Well, Melkor and Sauron started out as pure, higher beings... CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 4:49am
        immortal orks Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 16 2013, 4:21pm
            Add Orcs to the Bombadil and other origin mystery list. Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 16 2013, 5:48pm
    I think it's really disturbing that Orcs may be descended from Elves DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Jan 16 2013, 9:51am
    I actually like it! Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 16 2013, 10:05am
        Welcome to TORn! sador Send a private message to sador Jan 16 2013, 3:38pm
    I agree, the elvish origin idea has too many problems Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 16 2013, 3:22pm
        However, if the orcs are like dwarves as first made by Aule Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 16 2013, 3:37pm
        Perhaps trolls could not reproduce? Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 16 2013, 3:48pm
            Treebeard said that trolls were made in mockery of Ents CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 7:29pm
                If Morgoth used Ents as a "template" for Trolls, Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 16 2013, 7:56pm
                That doesn't mean that Ents were corrupted to become trolls... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 16 2013, 8:17pm
                    Trolls and Ents and Orcs CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 9:23pm
    Orcs from Elves Fredeghar Wayfarer Send a private message to Fredeghar Wayfarer Jan 17 2013, 4:56am
        Great points// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 17 2013, 12:55pm
    It may interest you to know Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Jan 17 2013, 8:44am
        Ooops! Channelling my better half! Sorry.\\ NZ Strider Send a private message to NZ Strider Jan 17 2013, 9:11am
        But then there is the problem of chronology.... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 17 2013, 4:45pm
            Chronology Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 17 2013, 4:56pm
            Certainly; however, Tolkien was always obsessively NZ Strider Send a private message to NZ Strider Jan 17 2013, 8:45pm
                You raise a good point... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 18 2013, 3:31am
    Origin of Orcs Eowyn3 Send a private message to Eowyn3 Jan 17 2013, 2:09pm
    orcs from elves andwise Send a private message to andwise Jan 17 2013, 2:24pm
        "The Kinslaying", over and over again CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 17 2013, 4:14pm
            Men... the' final' idea? Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 17 2013, 4:39pm
                dogs from wolves elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Jan 17 2013, 5:20pm
                    If you as I take Orcs corrupted from Elves as canon Asger Send a private message to Asger Jan 17 2013, 8:16pm
    made in mockery Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Jan 17 2013, 4:08pm
        Back to dragons CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 17 2013, 4:23pm
            There is something almost 'saurian' about dragons... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 17 2013, 4:55pm
            On dragons Gwenhwyfar Send a private message to Gwenhwyfar Jan 17 2013, 8:30pm
            Dragons Fredeghar Wayfarer Send a private message to Fredeghar Wayfarer Jan 18 2013, 1:54am
                Fast forward to "Of the Return of the Noldor" for dragon origins CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 18 2013, 7:15am

 
 
 

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