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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 16 2013, 4:21pm
Views: 1011
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What we can say is that the 'immortality question' was one Tolkien posed to himself. And I think it shows that he found the matter somewhat problematic. Tolkien noted (text VIII): 'It also seems clear (...) that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. [added later: The latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]' 'In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal' in the Elvish sense? Or Trolls? (...)' JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring So here we have two concerns: immortality, and the possibility of Morgoth not just corrupting beings, but making this corruption a heritable state -- in other words (as I read this), what will the children be if corrupted Elves [who have become Orcs] breed? Elves or Orcs? If Orcs, Morgoth has made his corruption a heritable state, and if this is true, Elves seem an unlikely source to JRRT himself (or at least this seems part of the reason anyway). Men would solve the immortality question, at least. And there might be other concerns. Tolkien notes (Morgoth's Ring) that Morgoth could so dominate some Orcs that they seemed like 'puppets' with no will of their own, some even slaying themselves when the Dark Lord was defeated, for example. And in a late note Tolkien explained... 'Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves), could also be reduced to a like condition.' JRRT, late note attached to text X 'Orcs from Men' If Orcs could be so dominated, it makes sense (to me anyway) that the source for Orcs could be so dominated as well, but here it's said that neither Elves nor Dwarves could be reduced to such a notable condition. One could argue that once Elves became Orcs they could be 'absorbed' in this way, but I also think that Men were -- generally speaking now -- more easily swayed to the will of the Dark Lords. Tolkien even notes, in text X [he had adjusted the chronology to allow for Men to be the source for Orcs, although admitted that it was still not without its difficulties]: 'This view of the origin of orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs -- and Men.' In my opinion, in general Men were already 'closer' to Orcs than Elves were, and notably I think, Men could be found in Morgoth's forces as well as Sauron's. Not all Men of course! But again, in general.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Origin of Orcs
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Eowyn3
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Jan 16 2013, 1:37am
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I'd be interested to know why that bothers you.
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Ataahua
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Jan 16 2013, 2:51am
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Origin of Orcs
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Eowyn3
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Jan 16 2013, 3:56am
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Well, Melkor and Sauron started out as pure, higher beings...
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 4:49am
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immortal orks
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Elthir
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Jan 16 2013, 4:21pm
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Add Orcs to the Bombadil and other origin mystery list.
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Eruonen
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Jan 16 2013, 5:48pm
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I think it's really disturbing that Orcs may be descended from Elves
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DanielLB
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Jan 16 2013, 9:51am
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I actually like it!
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Súlimë
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Jan 16 2013, 10:05am
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Welcome to TORn!
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sador
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Jan 16 2013, 3:38pm
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I agree, the elvish origin idea has too many problems
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Eruonen
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Jan 16 2013, 3:22pm
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However, if the orcs are like dwarves as first made by Aule
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Eruonen
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Jan 16 2013, 3:37pm
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Perhaps trolls could not reproduce?
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 16 2013, 3:48pm
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Treebeard said that trolls were made in mockery of Ents
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 7:29pm
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If Morgoth used Ents as a "template" for Trolls,
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 16 2013, 7:56pm
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That doesn't mean that Ents were corrupted to become trolls...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 16 2013, 8:17pm
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Trolls and Ents and Orcs
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 9:23pm
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Orcs from Elves
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
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Jan 17 2013, 4:56am
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Great points//
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 12:55pm
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It may interest you to know
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Roheryn
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Jan 17 2013, 8:44am
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Ooops! Channelling my better half! Sorry.\\
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NZ Strider
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Jan 17 2013, 9:11am
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But then there is the problem of chronology....
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 17 2013, 4:45pm
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Chronology
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Elthir
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Jan 17 2013, 4:56pm
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Certainly; however, Tolkien was always obsessively
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NZ Strider
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Jan 17 2013, 8:45pm
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You raise a good point...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 18 2013, 3:31am
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Origin of Orcs
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Eowyn3
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Jan 17 2013, 2:09pm
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orcs from elves
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andwise
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Jan 17 2013, 2:24pm
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"The Kinslaying", over and over again
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 4:14pm
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Men... the' final' idea?
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Elthir
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Jan 17 2013, 4:39pm
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dogs from wolves
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elevorn
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Jan 17 2013, 5:20pm
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If you as I take Orcs corrupted from Elves as canon
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Asger
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Jan 17 2013, 8:16pm
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made in mockery
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Elthir
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Jan 17 2013, 4:08pm
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Back to dragons
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 4:23pm
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There is something almost 'saurian' about dragons...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 17 2013, 4:55pm
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On dragons
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 17 2013, 8:30pm
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Dragons
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
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Jan 18 2013, 1:54am
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Fast forward to "Of the Return of the Noldor" for dragon origins
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CuriousG
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Jan 18 2013, 7:15am
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