Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
I looove this "chapter"

Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 6:20am


Views: 129
Shortcut
I looove this "chapter" [In reply to] Can't Post

so much so, that I'm doing my senior thesis (for my religion major) on it this coming semester (eeep!)
which brings me to

In Reply To
does anyone know of a creation story based on music?

None that I know of (as of now), but one of my ideas for my thesis is to do a comparison of creation stories, so I'll get back to you on that in a few months.
Still there is a similarity in that it was voice that brought the world into being in Genesis and the Ainulindalë.



In Reply To
Any ideas on why he didn’t sing them into existence?

Perhaps because there was no one to sing to?


In Reply To
The Music of the Ainur lives on in water, especially the Sea, and the Ainur considered water better than earth and air. Yet Ulmo isn’t the chief of the Valar. Why do you suppose Tolkien chose Manwe as the king of the world over Ulmo? Was he bowing to the influence of Norse and Greek myths that had the thunder/sky god as First God?

This also struck me on this read-through.
As we see in the further narrative, Ulmo wouldn't have made a particularly good leader (though if he was named leader he may have acted differently), so perhaps Ulmo was not chosen for that reason.
Or perhaps Ilúvatar chose Manwë because of his brother relationship to Melkor, so he would best oppose Melkor. But that is arguing from within the story, not about Tolkien's choices (please excuse my rambling, the thoughts, they are not fully formed before getting typed).



In Reply To
Do waterfalls and ocean waves sound musical to you, or is their sound their own and unrelated to music?

When listening to water, I think of its beauty, power and curious nature. I wouldn't say my first thought is music, though I can hear it as music. On the flip side, music often reminds me of water. So there's that...



In Reply To
Melkor’s sins: secrecy, pride, lust for power. What would you add?

Actually, I would remove secrecy and replace it with deception. Here's why / my thoughts:
There were two times when the word secrecy stood out to me (relating to Melkor)

Quote
and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger

at which point I questioned who it was a secret from and who knew of it

Quote
And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tribultary to its glory.

so I think his anger was secret even from himself
he will discover his secret thoughts and THEN perceive that they are part of the whole. It is not that he is just discoveries that they are part of the whole, he is discovering the truth of what his thoughts are to begin with.

and then there is

Quote
And he feigned, even to himself at first

which brought up questions like:
At what point did he realize the actual reasons for his actions?
What was his reaction upon realization?
and incidentally, this incident reminds me this of Melkor as an addict, trying to fool himself without realizing it



and now my random thoughts...

first some Genesis comparisons

Quote
and they were with him before aught else was made

This is just begging for a creatio ex nihilo vs creation out of chaos debate.

A short summary for those unfamiliar with the debate:
In translations of Gen1:1, there are alternate translations "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. All was void and without form..." and "In the beginning, WHEN God created..."
The first is creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing), since God brings everything into existence. Whereas the second is creation out of chaos, since the "stuff" of the world exists and has power of its own.
And each side has its own implications about evil in this world and God's power.

Anyhow, I'm probably boring you, but there is potential for a similar debate here. The Void is referred to, but does it mean that there was utterly nothing, or nothing was formed/created/made? And then in the quote above, does "was made" mean "was formed" or "was in existence"?


and more with Genesis, this time with Augustine too:
According to Augustine, the second creation story in Genesis was not simply a restatement of this first. Rather, the creation in 6 days (Gen1) was an instant in which everything was created potentially. Then the the second story (Gen2-3) happened in time (since it has dialogue) and is when everything is created actually. (I think he continues to say that this creation is still going on, but I can't remember for sure)
Sound familiar? The world is created in song in the Timeless Halls, and then created actually in time. The Ainur entered into the world at the beginning of time.


And now some snippets of thoughts...


Quote
and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into depths and into the heights

In what way did they pass beyond hearing? In pitch? spatially? volume?
Or perhaps did they pass beyond in that they became more, seemed tangible?


compare

Quote
many trumpets braying upon a few notes


Quote
Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord

Observation: notes show knowledge and ability, but a chord shows understanding



Quote
When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it

Is that flame the Flame Imperishable (which doesn't diminish, but was perhaps more obvious) or the "great fires" that Melkor kindled?



Okay, that's enough of my rambling and questions without answers.
I should go read the thread now. (or sleep first)


..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


(This post was edited by Oiotári on Jan 11 2013, 6:21am)

Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
    Thanks for kicking this off, CuriousG! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 31 2012, 4:14am
        Why not sing the Aunur? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Dec 31 2012, 10:22pm
            Tolkien seemed to have the same sentiments about evil CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 31 2012, 10:31pm
                Where it starts... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Dec 31 2012, 10:53pm
        Nice--thought to music to sound CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 10:30pm
            Ulmo Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 2 2013, 5:15pm
                Sorry, I wasn't clear CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 2 2013, 6:37pm
                    Well, no... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 4 2013, 12:41am
        Regarding Ulmo Cyberia Send a private message to Cyberia Jan 2 2013, 8:09am
            I actually don't see the similarity Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 2 2013, 5:19pm
        saying Eä Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 12 2013, 9:32pm
    Hark to those herald angels singing squire Send a private message to squire Jan 1 2013, 2:35pm
        Excellent point CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 10:04pm
            Stop me if you've heard this one, O Muse squire Send a private message to squire Jan 2 2013, 7:19pm
                Excellent insight--many thanks! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 2 2013, 8:14pm
        Another sung creation- the Kalevala noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 3 2013, 4:54pm
        Creation is song The Gardener Send a private message to The Gardener Jan 5 2013, 6:00am
            Where's Eve? Or Varda? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 5 2013, 7:40am
                No women were mentioned by name Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 12 2013, 8:45pm
            Worship of Creation is song squire Send a private message to squire Jan 5 2013, 2:49pm
    Should have read the brochure? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 1 2013, 7:14pm
        It does strike me every time I read it CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 9:25pm
        If we read that passage, perhaps it is not so clear Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 12 2013, 9:02pm
            I wonder about Tulkas leaving CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 3:30am
    Modern myth from modern things Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 1 2013, 7:42pm
        Thanks--great points, especially CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 9:21pm
        myth and music (and Manwe) telain Send a private message to telain Jan 8 2013, 6:11pm
    I wonder if the creation myth of Arda was analogous to Plurmo Send a private message to Plurmo Jan 2 2013, 3:26am
    He was not far off of reality either............ Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 4 2013, 9:31pm
    Tolkien's Representation of the Trinity KingTurgon Send a private message to KingTurgon Jan 4 2013, 9:45pm
        Jesus is Jesus Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 4 2013, 10:12pm
        For JRRT the events of ME were prior to Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 4 2013, 11:18pm
        Gandalf, in some ways CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 4 2013, 11:32pm
            Allegories - Contrast to The Lord of the Rings? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 5 2013, 9:03am
                Earlier post KingTurgon Send a private message to KingTurgon Jan 7 2013, 8:25pm
        Jesus Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 5:56pm
            Interesting idea- glad you posted it // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 6 2013, 7:09pm
            I know this isn't really a religion thread, but... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 6 2013, 8:02pm
                Maybe "reluctant" isn't quite right, Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 8:41pm
                    Ah that passage Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 6 2013, 11:20pm
            Everyone's welcome to join in CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2013, 9:14pm
                Thank you, and my apologies to Ardamire Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 10:19pm
    Without wishing to curtail this discussion- what are our plans for the next chapter? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 6 2013, 10:15pm
        We can take turns. Whoever wants to do the Valaquenta, just say so, and post when you'd like.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2013, 10:28pm
            Didn't get my edit inserted in time. More info: CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2013, 10:51pm
                I will take the Reading Room to Valaquenta, though I... do not know the way. :) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 1:02pm
    A Beautiful Creation Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 10:24pm
    I looove this "chapter" Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 11 2013, 6:20am
        Good point about no one to sing to CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 3:28am
    Late for the party sador Send a private message to sador Jan 16 2013, 10:52am

 
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.