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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jan 11 2013, 6:20am
Views: 1356
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so much so, that I'm doing my senior thesis (for my religion major) on it this coming semester (eeep!)
which brings me to
does anyone know of a creation story based on music? None that I know of (as of now), but one of my ideas for my thesis is to do a comparison of creation stories, so I'll get back to you on that in a few months.
Still there is a similarity in that it was voice that brought the world into being in Genesis and the Ainulindalë.
Any ideas on why he didn’t sing them into existence? Perhaps because there was no one to sing to?
The Music of the Ainur lives on in water, especially the Sea, and the Ainur considered water better than earth and air. Yet Ulmo isn’t the chief of the Valar. Why do you suppose Tolkien chose Manwe as the king of the world over Ulmo? Was he bowing to the influence of Norse and Greek myths that had the thunder/sky god as First God? This also struck me on this read-through.
As we see in the further narrative, Ulmo wouldn't have made a particularly good leader (though if he was named leader he may have acted differently), so perhaps Ulmo was not chosen for that reason.
Or perhaps Ilúvatar chose Manwë because of his brother relationship to Melkor, so he would best oppose Melkor. But that is arguing from within the story, not about Tolkien's choices (please excuse my rambling, the thoughts, they are not fully formed before getting typed).
Do waterfalls and ocean waves sound musical to you, or is their sound their own and unrelated to music? When listening to water, I think of its beauty, power and curious nature. I wouldn't say my first thought is music, though I can hear it as music. On the flip side, music often reminds me of water. So there's that...
Melkor’s sins: secrecy, pride, lust for power. What would you add? Actually, I would remove secrecy and replace it with deception. Here's why / my thoughts:
There were two times when the word secrecy stood out to me (relating to Melkor)
and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger at which point I questioned who it was a secret from and who knew of it
And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tribultary to its glory. so I think his anger was secret even from himself
he will discover his secret thoughts and THEN perceive that they are part of the whole. It is not that he is just discoveries that they are part of the whole, he is discovering the truth of what his thoughts are to begin with.
and then there is
And he feigned, even to himself at first which brought up questions like:
At what point did he realize the actual reasons for his actions?
What was his reaction upon realization?
and incidentally, this incident reminds me this of Melkor as an addict, trying to fool himself without realizing it
and now my random thoughts...
first some Genesis comparisons
and they were with him before aught else was made This is just begging for a creatio ex nihilo vs creation out of chaos debate.
A short summary for those unfamiliar with the debate:
In translations of Gen1:1, there are alternate translations "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. All was void and without form..." and "In the beginning, WHEN God created..."
The first is creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing), since God brings everything into existence. Whereas the second is creation out of chaos, since the "stuff" of the world exists and has power of its own.
And each side has its own implications about evil in this world and God's power.
Anyhow, I'm probably boring you, but there is potential for a similar debate here. The Void is referred to, but does it mean that there was utterly nothing, or nothing was formed/created/made? And then in the quote above, does "was made" mean "was formed" or "was in existence"?
and more with Genesis, this time with Augustine too:
According to Augustine, the second creation story in Genesis was not simply a restatement of this first. Rather, the creation in 6 days (Gen1) was an instant in which everything was created potentially. Then the the second story (Gen2-3) happened in time (since it has dialogue) and is when everything is created actually. (I think he continues to say that this creation is still going on, but I can't remember for sure)
Sound familiar? The world is created in song in the Timeless Halls, and then created actually in time. The Ainur entered into the world at the beginning of time.
And now some snippets of thoughts...
and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into depths and into the heights In what way did they pass beyond hearing? In pitch? spatially? volume?
Or perhaps did they pass beyond in that they became more, seemed tangible?
compare
many trumpets braying upon a few notes Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord Observation: notes show knowledge and ability, but a chord shows understanding
When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it Is that flame the Flame Imperishable (which doesn't diminish, but was perhaps more obvious) or the "great fires" that Melkor kindled?
Okay, that's enough of my rambling and questions without answers.
I should go read the thread now. (or sleep first)
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
(This post was edited by Oiotári on Jan 11 2013, 6:21am)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale
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CuriousG
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Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
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Thanks for kicking this off, CuriousG!
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Ardamírë
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Dec 31 2012, 4:14am
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Why not sing the Aunur?
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noWizardme
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Dec 31 2012, 10:22pm
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Tolkien seemed to have the same sentiments about evil
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CuriousG
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Dec 31 2012, 10:31pm
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Where it starts...
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noWizardme
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Dec 31 2012, 10:53pm
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Nice--thought to music to sound
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 10:30pm
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Ulmo
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Ardamírë
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Jan 2 2013, 5:15pm
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Sorry, I wasn't clear
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CuriousG
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Jan 2 2013, 6:37pm
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Well, no...
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Ardamírë
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Jan 4 2013, 12:41am
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Regarding Ulmo
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Cyberia
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Jan 2 2013, 8:09am
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I actually don't see the similarity
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Ardamírë
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Jan 2 2013, 5:19pm
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saying Eä
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Oiotári
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Jan 12 2013, 9:32pm
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Hark to those herald angels singing
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squire
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Jan 1 2013, 2:35pm
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Excellent point
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 10:04pm
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Stop me if you've heard this one, O Muse
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squire
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Jan 2 2013, 7:19pm
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Excellent insight--many thanks! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 2 2013, 8:14pm
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Another sung creation- the Kalevala
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noWizardme
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Jan 3 2013, 4:54pm
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Creation is song
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The Gardener
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Jan 5 2013, 6:00am
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Where's Eve? Or Varda?
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CuriousG
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Jan 5 2013, 7:40am
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No women were mentioned by name
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Oiotári
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Jan 12 2013, 8:45pm
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Worship of Creation is song
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squire
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Jan 5 2013, 2:49pm
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Should have read the brochure?
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noWizardme
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Jan 1 2013, 7:14pm
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It does strike me every time I read it
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 9:25pm
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If we read that passage, perhaps it is not so clear
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Oiotári
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Jan 12 2013, 9:02pm
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I wonder about Tulkas leaving
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 3:30am
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Modern myth from modern things
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Mim
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Jan 1 2013, 7:42pm
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Thanks--great points, especially
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 9:21pm
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myth and music (and Manwe)
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telain
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Jan 8 2013, 6:11pm
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I wonder if the creation myth of Arda was analogous to
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Plurmo
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Jan 2 2013, 3:26am
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He was not far off of reality either............
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Eruonen
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Jan 4 2013, 9:31pm
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Tolkien's Representation of the Trinity
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KingTurgon
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Jan 4 2013, 9:45pm
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Jesus is Jesus
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Ardamírë
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Jan 4 2013, 10:12pm
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For JRRT the events of ME were prior to
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Eruonen
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Jan 4 2013, 11:18pm
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Gandalf, in some ways
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CuriousG
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Jan 4 2013, 11:32pm
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Allegories - Contrast to The Lord of the Rings?
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noWizardme
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Jan 5 2013, 9:03am
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Earlier post
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KingTurgon
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Jan 7 2013, 8:25pm
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Jesus
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 5:56pm
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Interesting idea- glad you posted it //
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noWizardme
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Jan 6 2013, 7:09pm
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I know this isn't really a religion thread, but...
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Ardamírë
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Jan 6 2013, 8:02pm
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Maybe "reluctant" isn't quite right,
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 8:41pm
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Ah that passage
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Ardamírë
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Jan 6 2013, 11:20pm
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Everyone's welcome to join in
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CuriousG
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Jan 6 2013, 9:14pm
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Thank you, and my apologies to Ardamire
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 10:19pm
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Without wishing to curtail this discussion- what are our plans for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 6 2013, 10:15pm
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We can take turns. Whoever wants to do the Valaquenta, just say so, and post when you'd like.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 6 2013, 10:28pm
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Didn't get my edit inserted in time. More info:
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CuriousG
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Jan 6 2013, 10:51pm
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I will take the Reading Room to Valaquenta, though I... do not know the way. :)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 1:02pm
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A Beautiful Creation
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 10:24pm
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I looove this "chapter"
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Oiotári
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Jan 11 2013, 6:20am
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Good point about no one to sing to
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 3:28am
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Late for the party
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sador
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Jan 16 2013, 10:52am
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