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Gwenhwyfar
The Shire
Jan 10 2013, 2:48am
Views: 1153
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Perhaps Frodo and Sam did see lady orcs, but they're all just really ugly so no one appreciated their girlish charms? Regarding The Valaquenta: Shipping Edition, I guess another way to think about it would be to ask what motives guide Tolkien's single people. squire, I thought about Nienna/Ulmo, but (largely for reasons you mentioned) decided it wouldn't work. Since there are nine Valar, it seems that Eru's Plan A would have to have at least one single person. There could be a Nienna/Ulmo pairing, a Nienna/GoodMelkor pairing, or all three could be single (as they were in Plan B). There was an impediment to stop the Nienna/Melkor ship from sailing (one of the parties turned evil), but none to prevent Nienna and Ulmo from marrying if they wanted to. I think Ulmo is most suited to be the "odd man out" as it were. If Plan A was for GoodMelkor to be in charge, it makes sense that maybe he was meant to have a wife. After all, Manwe (who got Melkor's originally-intended job) and Varda seem to need each other in order to do their best job ruling. Ulmo reminds me of another bachelor whose personality inclined him to a solitary life of wandering around and listening to people: Gandalf. It's quite hard to imagine a Mrs. Mithrandir, even if she were awesome, also a Maia, tough, shared his compassion, liked long walks in the wilderness, etc. Gandalf liked people and was willing to spend time with others (particularly hobbits), no matter how grumpy he may have seemed. It's just that to do his job properly, he had to go poking around secret corners of the world where there wouldn't always be room for two. He was "wisest of the Maiar," but Saruman was given a position that outranked him, possibly because Gandalf wouldn't have been suited to staying in one place and being findable like leaders generally ought to be. Saruman's reasons for staying alone seem more Melkor-like, since somebody could have lived in his tower with him quite comfortably, if he had wanted a companion. (As long as it isn't Wormtongue.) Returning to Ulmo, could it be that he just wasn't suited to the top leadership position, even though his sympathy and knowledge would have made him good (maybe even best) at it? I saw some discussion of why Ulmo wasn't given the top job, in spite of the high regard Tolkien affords water in his works, by CuriousG and others in the Ainulindale thread. I wonder if the answer lies somewhere amidst Tolkien's philosophy of leadership. His good leaders tend to reluctant and/or active; to be otherwise is often a flaw. For instance, Theoden was not doing his job properly when he stayed in his hall, but he was a good king when he got up and rode around looking after his people's well-being. Contrast him with Denethor, who was way too comfortable in his position and tended to send other people out to do things instead of riding out himself. Aragorn's personality seems suited to wandering around as a Ranger, but he wanted to get married. He never seemed very interested in being king for the sake of pomp and being in charge (which did hold appeal for Denethor and Saruman), but he was willing to do it because he realized he had to for the good of Middle-Earth. Likewise, Gandalf took on the job of being the White Wizard only when it became clear that nobody else was capable of doing it and it needed to be done. Notable leaders who go against this pattern include Galadriel and Elrond, who are good and have fixed dwelling places. Both traveled a lot at earlier points in their lives, but eventually settled down to look after Lothlorien and Rivendell. Galadriel is and Elrond was married, so maybe that's why they can be more stationary than other "good" leaders? So, here's a question: What is Tolkien saying about leadership, wisdom-from-solitude, and marital status? It seems to me that, in Tolkien's world, the wisest people (i.e. those who would make the best leaders) are disqualified from taking official power because of their peripatetic ways and are also not eligible to marry BUT that people who do occupy such positions should marry someone who complements them (e.g. Manwe couldn't see as far without Varda).
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Valaquenta
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 12:58pm
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No turning back
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 1:35pm
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thank you!
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:45pm
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link to our earlier discussion of Ainulindale
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 2:54pm
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just posted there... and thank you!//
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telain
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Jan 8 2013, 6:12pm
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I look forward to your discussion post...
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:43pm
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Experts definitely not needed!
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 3:24pm
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A note on book "Arda Reconstructed" by Voronwe the Faithful
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm
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"DO keep up, Samwise Gamgee!" :)- Nah, you've been great//
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 4:39pm
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I have that book as well.
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 5:50pm
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That makes me quite happy!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jan 8 2013, 4:32pm
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Oops, I seem to have started....
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:22pm
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...and well, one thing led to another... (not for serious readers)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:34pm
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Great post! ; mnemonic
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 8:16pm
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An org chart for the Valar
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:18pm
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Ok, this is just me quite at random entering the world of the Reading Room, but..
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 1:01pm
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I see what you mean
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noWizardme
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Jan 12 2013, 5:23pm
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Ah! of course. Sorry, thought the lines meant that they came about -by- Eru ;) //
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 8:58pm
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every time I see "org chart", I read "orc chart!"//
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telain
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Jan 13 2013, 11:42pm
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Nice mnemonics, curiousG //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:36pm
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Mandos: Hand of Fate
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:38am
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*mods up* //
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Jan 12 2013, 5:29am
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"The Valaquenta underneath the bough, a squishy chair, Corvoisier, and thou, lurking beside me in the Reading Room."
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squire
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Jan 7 2013, 9:09pm
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...this forum is world enough?
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:35pm
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First of all...
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Eldineth
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Jan 7 2013, 11:11pm
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Eldineth, I would never have guessed from your post that you were not a native English speaker! Well-written post.! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:34pm
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Thank you, noWizardme!
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Eldineth
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Jan 9 2013, 1:11am
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Your English is terrific! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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Thank you!
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:26pm
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I agree with Squire about the Melkorina
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 11:21pm
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I think this is where I gave up on my first reading…
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Mim
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Jan 7 2013, 11:29pm
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The Shadow of Your Posts
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 1:56pm
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Hello! I'm new here and am quite happy to find that I managed to arrive when an electronic Silmarillion-reading party is getting started!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 9 2013, 6:33am
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Neat idea about Nienna and Melkor
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squire
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Jan 9 2013, 11:23am
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Evil bachelors
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CuriousG
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Jan 9 2013, 1:50pm
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"obsidian bunker" and other matters...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 5:43pm
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No evil women
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 5:49pm
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There was also Thuringwethil
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DanielLB
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Jan 9 2013, 6:04pm
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Females at large
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 6:22pm
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Sure...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:10pm
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Sorry, I'm probably dragging you off subject...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 8:13pm
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Amazorcs?
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 12:53am
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No beards, but . . . .
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 2:48am
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Married gods and single heroes
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 2:55pm
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Good point.
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:56pm
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Surely Orcs are a construction of Sauron?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:40am
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Perhaps...
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:35pm
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You assume wrongly...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 10 2013, 4:16pm
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Young goblins as a gollum-snack; good point. Though just to be awkward....
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 4:37pm
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Orc sex
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 5:59pm
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You probably just greatly increased the number of hits this thread will get from search engines :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 6:11pm
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Orc domesticity
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 7:54pm
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Great point: "really evil of heart" = incompatible with babies
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 10:08pm
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Yay for electronic magic!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 11:41pm
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Sam vs. the Valaquenta (stylistically I mean)
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 1:27pm
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I meant "the word 'valar' appears only 3 times in the text ( not inc. appendices)" //
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 4:47pm
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Out of which, only two are clear references.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:54pm
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"The Elder King"
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 1:09pm
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Actually, Bilbo.
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sador
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Jan 27 2013, 10:11pm
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"light-years" away from the subject, but...
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:29pm
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Wow! I did start something there!
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The Gardener
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Jan 11 2013, 6:48am
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There's a lively discussion of Orc origins on this thread: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=562557#562557 //
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noWizardme
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Jan 27 2013, 2:54pm
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I just don't think
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Rostron2
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Jan 10 2013, 10:23pm
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You still have Bolg Azog's son. //
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:51pm
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Wait...
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:25pm
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The reserves
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:29pm
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Arien and Galadriel
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Plurmo
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Jan 9 2013, 6:31pm
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Female evil...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:18pm
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On Lists...
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beren_boy
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Jan 9 2013, 10:01am
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List of kings
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acheron
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Jan 9 2013, 1:30pm
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Male - Female - and Melkor
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The Gardener
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Jan 9 2013, 4:46pm
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Yes, I always think Elves call out to Varda the way Catholics do to Mary.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list?
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Rostron2
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Jan 9 2013, 6:19pm
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Varda, not starry-eyed for Melkor; on being a single Vala/ier
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:26am
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Beware the lonely
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:36am
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Hmmm
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 5:30am
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the importance of being social
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:51pm
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Fab discussion! Valar Rhyme for Hobbit Children
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hanne
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Jan 14 2013, 1:18pm
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Excellent! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 1:26pm
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Truly beautiful and excellent--thanks for posting it.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 14 2013, 1:56pm
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thank you both - am happy you enjoyed! //
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hanne
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Jan 15 2013, 2:43am
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Mods up.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:56pm
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Doesn't it bother anyone else...
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Etarre
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Jan 22 2013, 10:17pm
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Post away- we have no "last posting date" :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 22 2013, 10:26pm
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A picture of the Valar in all their might and glory? Got it. It ain't beautiful, but it is fan art
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squire
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Jan 23 2013, 2:08am
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Pre-feminist Tolkien
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CuriousG
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Jan 23 2013, 4:57pm
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Still within a fortnight of your post...
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sador
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Jan 20 2013, 4:27pm
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the Secret Fire
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acheron
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Jan 8 2013, 12:27am
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The "V" Chapter--get ready for "F"s; and, more on Olorin
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:53am
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M for Bad?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:57am
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when do you want to start the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 3:42pm
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Ready for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 4:31pm
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