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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
No beards, but . . . .

Gwenhwyfar
The Shire

Jan 10 2013, 2:48am


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No beards, but . . . . [In reply to] Can't Post
Perhaps Frodo and Sam did see lady orcs, but they're all just really ugly so no one appreciated their girlish charms? Crazy

Regarding The Valaquenta: Shipping Edition, I guess another way to think about it would be to ask what motives guide Tolkien's single people. squire, I thought about Nienna/Ulmo, but (largely for reasons you mentioned) decided it wouldn't work. Since there are nine Valar, it seems that Eru's Plan A would have to have at least one single person. There could be a Nienna/Ulmo pairing, a Nienna/GoodMelkor pairing, or all three could be single (as they were in Plan B). There was an impediment to stop the Nienna/Melkor ship from sailing (one of the parties turned evil), but none to prevent Nienna and Ulmo from marrying if they wanted to.

I think Ulmo is most suited to be the "odd man out" as it were. If Plan A was for GoodMelkor to be in charge, it makes sense that maybe he was meant to have a wife. After all, Manwe (who got Melkor's originally-intended job) and Varda seem to need each other in order to do their best job ruling.

Ulmo reminds me of another bachelor whose personality inclined him to a solitary life of wandering around and listening to people: Gandalf. It's quite hard to imagine a Mrs. Mithrandir, even if she were awesome, also a Maia, tough, shared his compassion, liked long walks in the wilderness, etc. Gandalf liked people and was willing to spend time with others (particularly hobbits), no matter how grumpy he may have seemed. It's just that to do his job properly, he had to go poking around secret corners of the world where there wouldn't always be room for two. He was "wisest of the Maiar," but Saruman was given a position that outranked him, possibly because Gandalf wouldn't have been suited to staying in one place and being findable like leaders generally ought to be. Saruman's reasons for staying alone seem more Melkor-like, since somebody could have lived in his tower with him quite comfortably, if he had wanted a companion. (As long as it isn't Wormtongue.)

Returning to Ulmo, could it be that he just wasn't suited to the top leadership position, even though his sympathy and knowledge would have made him good (maybe even best) at it? I saw some discussion of why Ulmo wasn't given the top job, in spite of the high regard Tolkien affords water in his works, by CuriousG and others in the Ainulindale thread. I wonder if the answer lies somewhere amidst Tolkien's philosophy of leadership. His good leaders tend to reluctant and/or active; to be otherwise is often a flaw. For instance, Theoden was not doing his job properly when he stayed in his hall, but he was a good king when he got up and rode around looking after his people's well-being. Contrast him with Denethor, who was way too comfortable in his position and tended to send other people out to do things instead of riding out himself. Aragorn's personality seems suited to wandering around as a Ranger, but he wanted to get married. He never seemed very interested in being king for the sake of pomp and being in charge (which did hold appeal for Denethor and Saruman), but he was willing to do it because he realized he had to for the good of Middle-Earth. Likewise, Gandalf took on the job of being the White Wizard only when it became clear that nobody else was capable of doing it and it needed to be done.

Notable leaders who go against this pattern include Galadriel and Elrond, who are good and have fixed dwelling places. Both traveled a lot at earlier points in their lives, but eventually settled down to look after Lothlorien and Rivendell. Galadriel is and Elrond was married, so maybe that's why they can be more stationary than other "good" leaders?

So, here's a question: What is Tolkien saying about leadership, wisdom-from-solitude, and marital status? It seems to me that, in Tolkien's world, the wisest people (i.e. those who would make the best leaders) are disqualified from taking official power because of their peripatetic ways and are also not eligible to marry BUT that people who do occupy such positions should marry someone who complements them (e.g. Manwe couldn't see as far without Varda).

Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Valaquenta noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 12:58pm
    No turning back CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2013, 1:35pm
        thank you! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 7 2013, 2:45pm
            link to our earlier discussion of Ainulindale noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 2:54pm
                just posted there... and thank you!// telain Send a private message to telain Jan 8 2013, 6:12pm
    I look forward to your discussion post... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 7 2013, 2:43pm
        Experts definitely not needed! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2013, 3:24pm
    A note on book "Arda Reconstructed" by Voronwe the Faithful CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm
        "DO keep up, Samwise Gamgee!" :)- Nah, you've been great// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 4:39pm
        I have that book as well. Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 7 2013, 5:50pm
        That makes me quite happy! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Jan 8 2013, 4:32pm
    Oops, I seem to have started.... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 5:22pm
        ...and well, one thing led to another... (not for serious readers) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 5:34pm
        Great post! ; mnemonic CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2013, 8:16pm
            An org chart for the Valar noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 9:18pm
                Ok, this is just me quite at random entering the world of the Reading Room, but.. Xanaseb Send a private message to Xanaseb Jan 12 2013, 1:01pm
                    I see what you mean noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 12 2013, 5:23pm
                        Ah! of course. Sorry, thought the lines meant that they came about -by- Eru ;) // Xanaseb Send a private message to Xanaseb Jan 12 2013, 8:58pm
                        every time I see "org chart", I read "orc chart!"// telain Send a private message to telain Jan 13 2013, 11:42pm
            Nice mnemonics, curiousG // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 8 2013, 6:36pm
            Mandos: Hand of Fate telain Send a private message to telain Jan 10 2013, 1:38am
            *mods up* // Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Jan 12 2013, 5:29am
        "The Valaquenta underneath the bough, a squishy chair, Corvoisier, and thou, lurking beside me in the Reading Room." squire Send a private message to squire Jan 7 2013, 9:09pm
            ...this forum is world enough? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 9:35pm
        First of all... Eldineth Send a private message to Eldineth Jan 7 2013, 11:11pm
            Eldineth, I would never have guessed from your post that you were not a native English speaker! Well-written post.! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 8 2013, 6:34pm
                Thank you, noWizardme! Eldineth Send a private message to Eldineth Jan 9 2013, 1:11am
            Your English is terrific! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
                Thank you! Eldineth Send a private message to Eldineth Jan 10 2013, 4:26pm
        I agree with Squire about the Melkorina Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 7 2013, 11:21pm
        I think this is where I gave up on my first reading… Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 7 2013, 11:29pm
            The Shadow of Your Posts noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 8 2013, 1:56pm
        Hello! I'm new here and am quite happy to find that I managed to arrive when an electronic Silmarillion-reading party is getting started! Gwenhwyfar Send a private message to Gwenhwyfar Jan 9 2013, 6:33am
            Neat idea about Nienna and Melkor squire Send a private message to squire Jan 9 2013, 11:23am
                Evil bachelors CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2013, 1:50pm
                    "obsidian bunker" and other matters... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 9 2013, 5:43pm
                    No evil women Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 9 2013, 5:49pm
                        There was also Thuringwethil DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Jan 9 2013, 6:04pm
                        Females at large noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 9 2013, 6:22pm
                            Sure... Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 9 2013, 7:10pm
                                Sorry, I'm probably dragging you off subject... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 9 2013, 8:13pm
                                Amazorcs? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 10 2013, 12:53am
                                    No beards, but . . . . Gwenhwyfar Send a private message to Gwenhwyfar Jan 10 2013, 2:48am
                                        Married gods and single heroes noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 10 2013, 2:55pm
                                        Good point. Eldineth Send a private message to Eldineth Jan 10 2013, 4:56pm
                                    Surely Orcs are a construction of Sauron? The Gardener Send a private message to The Gardener Jan 10 2013, 10:40am
                                        Perhaps... Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 10 2013, 1:35pm
                                        You assume wrongly... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 10 2013, 4:16pm
                                            Young goblins as a gollum-snack; good point. Though just to be awkward.... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 10 2013, 4:37pm
                                                Orc sex CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 10 2013, 5:59pm
                                                    You probably just greatly increased the number of hits this thread will get from search engines :) // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 10 2013, 6:11pm
                                                    Orc domesticity Gwenhwyfar Send a private message to Gwenhwyfar Jan 10 2013, 7:54pm
                                                        Great point: "really evil of heart" = incompatible with babies noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 10 2013, 10:08pm
                                                            Yay for electronic magic! Gwenhwyfar Send a private message to Gwenhwyfar Jan 10 2013, 11:41pm
                                                                Sam vs. the Valaquenta (stylistically I mean) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 11 2013, 1:27pm
                                                                    I meant "the word 'valar' appears only 3 times in the text ( not inc. appendices)" // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 11 2013, 4:47pm
                                                                        Out of which, only two are clear references. sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2013, 12:54pm
                                                                            "The Elder King" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 17 2013, 1:09pm
                                                                                Actually, Bilbo. sador Send a private message to sador Jan 27 2013, 10:11pm
                                                            "light-years" away from the subject, but... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 11 2013, 4:29pm
                                                        Wow! I did start something there! The Gardener Send a private message to The Gardener Jan 11 2013, 6:48am
                                                        There's a lively discussion of Orc origins on this thread: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=562557#562557 // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 2:54pm
                                                    I just don't think Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Jan 10 2013, 10:23pm
                                                You still have Bolg Azog's son. // sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2013, 12:51pm
                                        Wait... Eldineth Send a private message to Eldineth Jan 10 2013, 4:25pm
                                    The reserves Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 10 2013, 1:29pm
                        Arien and Galadriel Plurmo Send a private message to Plurmo Jan 9 2013, 6:31pm
                            Female evil... Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 9 2013, 7:18pm
        On Lists... beren_boy Send a private message to beren_boy Jan 9 2013, 10:01am
            List of kings acheron Send a private message to acheron Jan 9 2013, 1:30pm
        Male - Female - and Melkor The Gardener Send a private message to The Gardener Jan 9 2013, 4:46pm
            Yes, I always think Elves call out to Varda the way Catholics do to Mary.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
        How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list? Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Jan 9 2013, 6:19pm
        Varda, not starry-eyed for Melkor; on being a single Vala/ier telain Send a private message to telain Jan 10 2013, 1:26am
            Beware the lonely CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 10 2013, 4:36am
                Hmmm Gwenhwyfar Send a private message to Gwenhwyfar Jan 10 2013, 5:30am
                    the importance of being social telain Send a private message to telain Jan 11 2013, 4:51pm
        Fab discussion! Valar Rhyme for Hobbit Children hanne Send a private message to hanne Jan 14 2013, 1:18pm
            Excellent! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 14 2013, 1:26pm
            Truly beautiful and excellent--thanks for posting it.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 14 2013, 1:56pm
                thank you both - am happy you enjoyed! // hanne Send a private message to hanne Jan 15 2013, 2:43am
            Mods up. sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2013, 12:56pm
            Doesn't it bother anyone else... Etarre Send a private message to Etarre Jan 22 2013, 10:17pm
                Post away- we have no "last posting date" :) // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 22 2013, 10:26pm
                A picture of the Valar in all their might and glory? Got it. It ain't beautiful, but it is fan art squire Send a private message to squire Jan 23 2013, 2:08am
                Pre-feminist Tolkien CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 23 2013, 4:57pm
        Still within a fortnight of your post... sador Send a private message to sador Jan 20 2013, 4:27pm
    the Secret Fire acheron Send a private message to acheron Jan 8 2013, 12:27am
    The "V" Chapter--get ready for "F"s; and, more on Olorin CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 10 2013, 4:53am
        M for Bad? The Gardener Send a private message to The Gardener Jan 10 2013, 10:57am
    when do you want to start the next chapter? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 10 2013, 3:42pm
    Ready for the next chapter? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 14 2013, 4:31pm

 
 
 

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