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Gwenhwyfar
The Shire
Jan 9 2013, 6:33am
Views: 1266
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Hello! I'm new here and am quite happy to find that I managed to arrive when an electronic Silmarillion-reading party is getting started!
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list? I actually didn't define the Valaquenta as a "list" the first time I read it (when I was 14 or 15), and I was grateful for the concise presentation of information to which I could return when I needed to look somebody up. Perhaps this was because my best friend (the person who started me on The Hobbit & LOTR) gave me advance warning not to expect The Silmarillion to be the same novel-like kind of book. In fact, she described it as "a history book for elf children to study." While that definition might be debatable, it made the book comprehensible to me. I note that (at least in my edition) we get the lists as “flat” prose This also makes sense if one looks at the Valaquenta as a reference book for little beginner-level elf students. I always imagined it as a sort of summary document that was derived/adapted from more complicated songs and legends that the the grown-ups would know. (This textbook approach comes with an added bonus: an excuse to imagine all the strategies adorable elf kids could employ when trying to get out of doing their homework!) How do you react to authors deploying so much invented terminology (Tolkien specifically, other authors for comparison)? Tolkien was the first author who did this that I read. I loved the intricacy of his world and languages, but I've been disappointed with most other authors who attempt such things. Primarily, when I'm displeased with an author's invented vocabulary, it has been because I felt that they were unoriginal and simply emulating Tolkien (whether consciously or not). I was particularly irked by Christopher Paolini's YA Eragon series. For example, his map contained places called "Melian" and "Beirland" and he had a character named "Arya" (she was an elf princess/love interest, of course). He also used real Old English to provide vocabulary for his "ancient language" which held magical properties. Now, why is it ok with me for Tolkien to apply Old English to the language of the Rohirrim but not for anybody else to make similar use of it? Tolkien didn't invent Old English, yet I still decided that Mr. Paolini was "trying too hard to be Tolkien." Is it simply that Paolini isn't a very good writer (which is probably true regardless of his language usage)? Your question made me realize that I haven't encountered any invented-language-intensive books written before Tolkien's writings were published and therefore I can't help comparing any such book to his. This may or may not be fair, so I'd love to hear about earlier language-makers if anyone has suggestions. It could be (probably is) that Tolkien is better at inventing languages than any other author, but I've read and enjoyed lots of medium-quality yet original fantasy but this is seldom the case when word-invention takes the forefront. I now wonder whether I'm excessively picky (or have had bad luck finding the right books) or if all the middle-quality language inventors are overwhelmed by the magnitude of Tolkien's lingusitic imagination? The Valar have gender, but we’re told in Ainulindale that they can alter their appearance like clothes and similar comments are made in Valaquenta. Do you reckon they are stuck being male/female, as humans are? I agree with squire. Tolkien seems to have regarded gender as an essential part of a person's personality, so it's unlikely that the Valar he imagined would ever feel "stuck" in their gender or wish to change it even if they could. The Valar come in pairs and are mostly married (a male Valar and a female Valier). Is that significant? Melkor is not married, and is without female equivalent. Is this significant? I like what Eldineth said about Melkor being a non-sharing person. While this goes a good way toward explaining his evilness, he isn't the only unmarried Vala mentioned. Nienna, who "dwells alone" is my favorite character in the Valaquenta (anybody Gandalf wants to hang out with must be pretty cool). The difference is that she cares deeply about others and shares their griefs. Melkor in his self-isolation is willing to impose his will on others but not to receive any advice, friendship, etc. Nienna seems like his opposite. She shares in a primarily receptive way; since she "does not weep for herself," she needs to hear, absorb, and learn from the sorrows of others if she is to have any power at all. Her job is to comfort and strengthen people who are hurting, so she would be useless if she couldn't take in other people's pain. I wonder if -- in the plan where Melkor never turned evil -- he and Nienna were meant to be paired?
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Valaquenta
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 12:58pm
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No turning back
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 1:35pm
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thank you!
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:45pm
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link to our earlier discussion of Ainulindale
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 2:54pm
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just posted there... and thank you!//
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telain
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Jan 8 2013, 6:12pm
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I look forward to your discussion post...
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:43pm
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Experts definitely not needed!
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 3:24pm
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A note on book "Arda Reconstructed" by Voronwe the Faithful
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm
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"DO keep up, Samwise Gamgee!" :)- Nah, you've been great//
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 4:39pm
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I have that book as well.
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 5:50pm
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That makes me quite happy!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jan 8 2013, 4:32pm
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Oops, I seem to have started....
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:22pm
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...and well, one thing led to another... (not for serious readers)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:34pm
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Great post! ; mnemonic
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 8:16pm
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An org chart for the Valar
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:18pm
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Ok, this is just me quite at random entering the world of the Reading Room, but..
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 1:01pm
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I see what you mean
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noWizardme
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Jan 12 2013, 5:23pm
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Ah! of course. Sorry, thought the lines meant that they came about -by- Eru ;) //
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 8:58pm
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every time I see "org chart", I read "orc chart!"//
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telain
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Jan 13 2013, 11:42pm
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Nice mnemonics, curiousG //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:36pm
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Mandos: Hand of Fate
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:38am
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*mods up* //
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Jan 12 2013, 5:29am
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"The Valaquenta underneath the bough, a squishy chair, Corvoisier, and thou, lurking beside me in the Reading Room."
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squire
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Jan 7 2013, 9:09pm
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...this forum is world enough?
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:35pm
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First of all...
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Eldineth
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Jan 7 2013, 11:11pm
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Eldineth, I would never have guessed from your post that you were not a native English speaker! Well-written post.! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:34pm
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Thank you, noWizardme!
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Eldineth
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Jan 9 2013, 1:11am
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Your English is terrific! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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Thank you!
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:26pm
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I agree with Squire about the Melkorina
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 11:21pm
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I think this is where I gave up on my first reading…
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Mim
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Jan 7 2013, 11:29pm
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The Shadow of Your Posts
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 1:56pm
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Hello! I'm new here and am quite happy to find that I managed to arrive when an electronic Silmarillion-reading party is getting started!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 9 2013, 6:33am
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Neat idea about Nienna and Melkor
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squire
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Jan 9 2013, 11:23am
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Evil bachelors
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CuriousG
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Jan 9 2013, 1:50pm
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"obsidian bunker" and other matters...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 5:43pm
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No evil women
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 5:49pm
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There was also Thuringwethil
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DanielLB
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Jan 9 2013, 6:04pm
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Females at large
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 6:22pm
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Sure...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:10pm
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Sorry, I'm probably dragging you off subject...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 8:13pm
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Amazorcs?
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 12:53am
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No beards, but . . . .
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 2:48am
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Married gods and single heroes
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 2:55pm
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Good point.
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:56pm
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Surely Orcs are a construction of Sauron?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:40am
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Perhaps...
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:35pm
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You assume wrongly...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 10 2013, 4:16pm
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Young goblins as a gollum-snack; good point. Though just to be awkward....
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 4:37pm
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Orc sex
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 5:59pm
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You probably just greatly increased the number of hits this thread will get from search engines :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 6:11pm
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Orc domesticity
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 7:54pm
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Great point: "really evil of heart" = incompatible with babies
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 10:08pm
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Yay for electronic magic!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 11:41pm
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Sam vs. the Valaquenta (stylistically I mean)
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 1:27pm
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I meant "the word 'valar' appears only 3 times in the text ( not inc. appendices)" //
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 4:47pm
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Out of which, only two are clear references.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:54pm
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"The Elder King"
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 1:09pm
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Actually, Bilbo.
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sador
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Jan 27 2013, 10:11pm
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"light-years" away from the subject, but...
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:29pm
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Wow! I did start something there!
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The Gardener
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Jan 11 2013, 6:48am
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There's a lively discussion of Orc origins on this thread: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=562557#562557 //
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noWizardme
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Jan 27 2013, 2:54pm
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I just don't think
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Rostron2
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Jan 10 2013, 10:23pm
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You still have Bolg Azog's son. //
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:51pm
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Wait...
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:25pm
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The reserves
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:29pm
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Arien and Galadriel
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Plurmo
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Jan 9 2013, 6:31pm
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Female evil...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:18pm
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On Lists...
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beren_boy
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Jan 9 2013, 10:01am
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List of kings
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acheron
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Jan 9 2013, 1:30pm
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Male - Female - and Melkor
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The Gardener
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Jan 9 2013, 4:46pm
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Yes, I always think Elves call out to Varda the way Catholics do to Mary.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list?
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Rostron2
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Jan 9 2013, 6:19pm
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Varda, not starry-eyed for Melkor; on being a single Vala/ier
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:26am
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Beware the lonely
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:36am
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Hmmm
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 5:30am
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the importance of being social
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:51pm
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Fab discussion! Valar Rhyme for Hobbit Children
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hanne
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Jan 14 2013, 1:18pm
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Excellent! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 1:26pm
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Truly beautiful and excellent--thanks for posting it.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 14 2013, 1:56pm
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thank you both - am happy you enjoyed! //
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hanne
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Jan 15 2013, 2:43am
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Mods up.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:56pm
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Doesn't it bother anyone else...
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Etarre
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Jan 22 2013, 10:17pm
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Post away- we have no "last posting date" :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 22 2013, 10:26pm
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A picture of the Valar in all their might and glory? Got it. It ain't beautiful, but it is fan art
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squire
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Jan 23 2013, 2:08am
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Pre-feminist Tolkien
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CuriousG
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Jan 23 2013, 4:57pm
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Still within a fortnight of your post...
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sador
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Jan 20 2013, 4:27pm
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the Secret Fire
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acheron
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Jan 8 2013, 12:27am
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The "V" Chapter--get ready for "F"s; and, more on Olorin
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:53am
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M for Bad?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:57am
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when do you want to start the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 3:42pm
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Ready for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 4:31pm
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