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Mim
The Shire
Jan 7 2013, 11:29pm
Views: 2809
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I think this is where I gave up on my first reading…
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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...but I was only about 9 so maybe you can forgive me! The second time around it was much easier to digest. In some ways it continues the biblical feel. The Bible does have its fair share of lists of names and who fathered who and who did what, as you mentioned. At the beginning of my degree I did a module about the tale and the oral tradition. Lists and things are very common in the oral tradition and one theory which I found fairly convincing is that it forms the basis of a repetitive form. You list the names, establish a piece of information about the character and then you repeat that character with that piece of information and it makes it easier for the listeners to remember the characters over the length of the telling and it makes it easier for the teller to remember all the names when he’s telling the story. Well that’s just a bit of a tangent, but that could be an explanation of the existence of lists in classical literature. Tolkien obviously doesn’t do that. Perhaps the list would have seemed less out of place if he had. Or perhaps he intended to. We do have to remember that this is not, perhaps, exactly how Tolkien intended this information to be presented. Maybe we can hypothesise that this may have ended up in a similar type of verse to Tree beards. Personally, I think that might have gotten a little off putting as well. As to invented terminology, I think that that can work really well for an author or it can go really badly. I think there are several authors who do it very successfully. In A Clockwork Orange for example, the made up terminology, the made up language is in part what makes it so successful. It’s one of the most interesting elements of the book. The Harry Potter books are also successful because they create such a vivid imaginary world with it’s own set of terminology. An example of where it was less successful for me would be something like The Hunger Games, where the terms were often too obviously rooted in our own language. I think that’s the key to success when you’re making up sets of terminology, the terms have to be both totally alien and totally believable. Linguists often use things called “nonse” words to test how we understand language and it’s generally concluded that we are capable of detecting words. The key to creating a good nonse word is creating a word that seems linguistically possible. Tolkien, I think, succeeds in always creating words and languages that the average reader will consider linguistically possible. That means that they don’t grate and we can incorporate them into out vocabulary easily. Another thing I would say about inventing terms is that it is something that is fairly common in works written for children. I think this is because children are more imaginative linguistically, or rather their word bank is less closed off. A child will more readily accept a made up term because as far as they know, it might not actually be made up. This may be part of why Tolkien’s work has had to so often face off against the criticism that it’s childish. There’s a lot I could say about the gender thing, but I think that might be reading more into the text than is actually there. I think when you get into issues of sex the whole situation becomes very unclear. Tolkien’s work certainly doesn’t contain a whole lot of it. I think he just didn’t find that side of things very interesting. He creates neat couples perhaps in part so he can get on with writing about what really interests him. This is a bit rambly, so I might revise it when I get a chance.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Valaquenta
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 12:58pm
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No turning back
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 1:35pm
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thank you!
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:45pm
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link to our earlier discussion of Ainulindale
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 2:54pm
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just posted there... and thank you!//
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telain
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Jan 8 2013, 6:12pm
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I look forward to your discussion post...
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telain
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Jan 7 2013, 2:43pm
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Experts definitely not needed!
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 3:24pm
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A note on book "Arda Reconstructed" by Voronwe the Faithful
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm
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"DO keep up, Samwise Gamgee!" :)- Nah, you've been great//
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 4:39pm
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I have that book as well.
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 5:50pm
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That makes me quite happy!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jan 8 2013, 4:32pm
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Oops, I seem to have started....
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:22pm
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...and well, one thing led to another... (not for serious readers)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 5:34pm
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Great post! ; mnemonic
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CuriousG
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Jan 7 2013, 8:16pm
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An org chart for the Valar
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:18pm
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Ok, this is just me quite at random entering the world of the Reading Room, but..
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 1:01pm
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I see what you mean
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noWizardme
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Jan 12 2013, 5:23pm
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Ah! of course. Sorry, thought the lines meant that they came about -by- Eru ;) //
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Xanaseb
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Jan 12 2013, 8:58pm
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every time I see "org chart", I read "orc chart!"//
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telain
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Jan 13 2013, 11:42pm
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Nice mnemonics, curiousG //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:36pm
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Mandos: Hand of Fate
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:38am
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*mods up* //
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Jan 12 2013, 5:29am
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"The Valaquenta underneath the bough, a squishy chair, Corvoisier, and thou, lurking beside me in the Reading Room."
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squire
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Jan 7 2013, 9:09pm
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...this forum is world enough?
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 9:35pm
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First of all...
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Eldineth
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Jan 7 2013, 11:11pm
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Eldineth, I would never have guessed from your post that you were not a native English speaker! Well-written post.! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 6:34pm
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Thank you, noWizardme!
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Eldineth
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Jan 9 2013, 1:11am
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Your English is terrific! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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Thank you!
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:26pm
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I agree with Squire about the Melkorina
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Ardamírë
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Jan 7 2013, 11:21pm
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I think this is where I gave up on my first reading…
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Mim
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Jan 7 2013, 11:29pm
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The Shadow of Your Posts
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noWizardme
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Jan 8 2013, 1:56pm
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Hello! I'm new here and am quite happy to find that I managed to arrive when an electronic Silmarillion-reading party is getting started!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 9 2013, 6:33am
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Neat idea about Nienna and Melkor
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squire
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Jan 9 2013, 11:23am
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Evil bachelors
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CuriousG
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Jan 9 2013, 1:50pm
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"obsidian bunker" and other matters...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 5:43pm
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No evil women
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 5:49pm
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There was also Thuringwethil
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DanielLB
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Jan 9 2013, 6:04pm
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Females at large
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 6:22pm
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Sure...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:10pm
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Sorry, I'm probably dragging you off subject...
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noWizardme
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Jan 9 2013, 8:13pm
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Amazorcs?
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 12:53am
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No beards, but . . . .
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 2:48am
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Married gods and single heroes
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 2:55pm
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Good point.
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:56pm
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Surely Orcs are a construction of Sauron?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:40am
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Perhaps...
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:35pm
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You assume wrongly...
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 10 2013, 4:16pm
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Young goblins as a gollum-snack; good point. Though just to be awkward....
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 4:37pm
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Orc sex
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 5:59pm
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You probably just greatly increased the number of hits this thread will get from search engines :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 6:11pm
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Orc domesticity
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 7:54pm
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Great point: "really evil of heart" = incompatible with babies
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 10:08pm
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Yay for electronic magic!
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 11:41pm
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Sam vs. the Valaquenta (stylistically I mean)
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 1:27pm
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I meant "the word 'valar' appears only 3 times in the text ( not inc. appendices)" //
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noWizardme
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Jan 11 2013, 4:47pm
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Out of which, only two are clear references.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:54pm
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"The Elder King"
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CuriousG
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Jan 17 2013, 1:09pm
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Actually, Bilbo.
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sador
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Jan 27 2013, 10:11pm
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"light-years" away from the subject, but...
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:29pm
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Wow! I did start something there!
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The Gardener
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Jan 11 2013, 6:48am
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There's a lively discussion of Orc origins on this thread: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=562557#562557 //
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noWizardme
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Jan 27 2013, 2:54pm
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I just don't think
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Rostron2
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Jan 10 2013, 10:23pm
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You still have Bolg Azog's son. //
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:51pm
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Wait...
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Eldineth
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Jan 10 2013, 4:25pm
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The reserves
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Mim
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Jan 10 2013, 1:29pm
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Arien and Galadriel
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Plurmo
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Jan 9 2013, 6:31pm
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Female evil...
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Mim
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Jan 9 2013, 7:18pm
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On Lists...
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beren_boy
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Jan 9 2013, 10:01am
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List of kings
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acheron
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Jan 9 2013, 1:30pm
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Male - Female - and Melkor
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The Gardener
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Jan 9 2013, 4:46pm
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Yes, I always think Elves call out to Varda the way Catholics do to Mary.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:38am
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How did you feel the first time you ever arrived at this chapter and discovered it was a long list?
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Rostron2
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Jan 9 2013, 6:19pm
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Varda, not starry-eyed for Melkor; on being a single Vala/ier
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telain
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Jan 10 2013, 1:26am
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Beware the lonely
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:36am
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Hmmm
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Gwenhwyfar
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Jan 10 2013, 5:30am
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the importance of being social
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telain
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Jan 11 2013, 4:51pm
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Fab discussion! Valar Rhyme for Hobbit Children
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hanne
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Jan 14 2013, 1:18pm
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Excellent! //
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 1:26pm
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Truly beautiful and excellent--thanks for posting it.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 14 2013, 1:56pm
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thank you both - am happy you enjoyed! //
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hanne
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Jan 15 2013, 2:43am
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Mods up.
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sador
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Jan 17 2013, 12:56pm
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Doesn't it bother anyone else...
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Etarre
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Jan 22 2013, 10:17pm
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Post away- we have no "last posting date" :) //
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noWizardme
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Jan 22 2013, 10:26pm
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A picture of the Valar in all their might and glory? Got it. It ain't beautiful, but it is fan art
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squire
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Jan 23 2013, 2:08am
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Pre-feminist Tolkien
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CuriousG
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Jan 23 2013, 4:57pm
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Still within a fortnight of your post...
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sador
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Jan 20 2013, 4:27pm
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the Secret Fire
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acheron
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Jan 8 2013, 12:27am
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The "V" Chapter--get ready for "F"s; and, more on Olorin
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CuriousG
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Jan 10 2013, 4:53am
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M for Bad?
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The Gardener
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Jan 10 2013, 10:57am
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when do you want to start the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 10 2013, 3:42pm
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Ready for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 14 2013, 4:31pm
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