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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 2 2013, 6:37pm
Views: 3159
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My original and follow-up questions should have more clearly stated my line of thinking, which is:
1. Tolkien rates water as the best element in Arda, so why would the Vala of that element be #2?
2. If the reason for that is that there needed to be a Vala who helped the Noldor, then what about this scenario? Ulmo is the #1 Vala and issues the ban on the Noldor, then a lesser Vala, such as Manwe, is the one in the story who helps the Noldor. Or others from a long list of options: Varda could help them because the Eldar love her most, or Lorien could come to them in dreams, or Orome could help them on his rides through Middle-earth.
I should have originally asked: "Does the personality of Ulmo have to be the way it is? Was Tolkien so determined to make Ulmo the kindly renegade that he had no choice but to make him #2 since a renegade couldn't be #1? Or would it have been more logical and consistent with water being #1 that Ulmo should be #1, and the kindly renegade role would be assigned to someone else?"
When I think about it, Aule lives in Valinor, not underground caves, and Manwe may have a palace on a high mountain, but he doesn't float around in the sky all the time, so neither immerses themselves in their element as Ulmo does. What if Ulmo was like the others and ruled the sea from Valinor? That should be possible.
This is more "what if" than anything. I'm not criticizing Tolkien at all, I'm just puzzled that he made water #1 and Ulmo #2, not that it was a bad choice.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale
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CuriousG
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Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
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Thanks for kicking this off, CuriousG!
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Ardamírë
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Dec 31 2012, 4:14am
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Why not sing the Aunur?
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noWizardme
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Dec 31 2012, 10:22pm
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Tolkien seemed to have the same sentiments about evil
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CuriousG
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Dec 31 2012, 10:31pm
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Where it starts...
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noWizardme
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Dec 31 2012, 10:53pm
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Nice--thought to music to sound
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 10:30pm
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Ulmo
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Ardamírë
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Jan 2 2013, 5:15pm
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Sorry, I wasn't clear
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CuriousG
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Jan 2 2013, 6:37pm
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Well, no...
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Ardamírë
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Jan 4 2013, 12:41am
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Regarding Ulmo
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Cyberia
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Jan 2 2013, 8:09am
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I actually don't see the similarity
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Ardamírë
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Jan 2 2013, 5:19pm
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saying Eä
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Oiotári
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Jan 12 2013, 9:32pm
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Hark to those herald angels singing
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squire
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Jan 1 2013, 2:35pm
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Excellent point
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 10:04pm
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Stop me if you've heard this one, O Muse
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squire
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Jan 2 2013, 7:19pm
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Excellent insight--many thanks! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 2 2013, 8:14pm
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Another sung creation- the Kalevala
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noWizardme
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Jan 3 2013, 4:54pm
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Creation is song
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The Gardener
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Jan 5 2013, 6:00am
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Where's Eve? Or Varda?
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CuriousG
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Jan 5 2013, 7:40am
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No women were mentioned by name
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Oiotári
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Jan 12 2013, 8:45pm
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Worship of Creation is song
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squire
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Jan 5 2013, 2:49pm
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Should have read the brochure?
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noWizardme
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Jan 1 2013, 7:14pm
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It does strike me every time I read it
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 9:25pm
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If we read that passage, perhaps it is not so clear
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Oiotári
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Jan 12 2013, 9:02pm
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I wonder about Tulkas leaving
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 3:30am
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Modern myth from modern things
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Mim
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Jan 1 2013, 7:42pm
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Thanks--great points, especially
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CuriousG
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Jan 1 2013, 9:21pm
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myth and music (and Manwe)
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telain
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Jan 8 2013, 6:11pm
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I wonder if the creation myth of Arda was analogous to
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Plurmo
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Jan 2 2013, 3:26am
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He was not far off of reality either............
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Eruonen
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Jan 4 2013, 9:31pm
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Tolkien's Representation of the Trinity
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KingTurgon
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Jan 4 2013, 9:45pm
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Jesus is Jesus
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Ardamírë
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Jan 4 2013, 10:12pm
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For JRRT the events of ME were prior to
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Eruonen
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Jan 4 2013, 11:18pm
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Gandalf, in some ways
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CuriousG
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Jan 4 2013, 11:32pm
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Allegories - Contrast to The Lord of the Rings?
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noWizardme
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Jan 5 2013, 9:03am
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Earlier post
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KingTurgon
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Jan 7 2013, 8:25pm
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Jesus
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 5:56pm
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Interesting idea- glad you posted it //
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noWizardme
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Jan 6 2013, 7:09pm
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I know this isn't really a religion thread, but...
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Ardamírë
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Jan 6 2013, 8:02pm
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Maybe "reluctant" isn't quite right,
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 8:41pm
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Ah that passage
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Ardamírë
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Jan 6 2013, 11:20pm
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Everyone's welcome to join in
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CuriousG
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Jan 6 2013, 9:14pm
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Thank you, and my apologies to Ardamire
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 10:19pm
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Without wishing to curtail this discussion- what are our plans for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 6 2013, 10:15pm
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We can take turns. Whoever wants to do the Valaquenta, just say so, and post when you'd like.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 6 2013, 10:28pm
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Didn't get my edit inserted in time. More info:
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CuriousG
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Jan 6 2013, 10:51pm
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I will take the Reading Room to Valaquenta, though I... do not know the way. :)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7 2013, 1:02pm
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A Beautiful Creation
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6 2013, 10:24pm
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I looove this "chapter"
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Oiotári
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Jan 11 2013, 6:20am
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Good point about no one to sing to
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CuriousG
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Jan 16 2013, 3:28am
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Late for the party
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sador
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Jan 16 2013, 10:52am
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