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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 30 2012, 1:58pm
Views: 775
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Part of the problem might be that certain relevant texts are hard to date, at least in relation to each other:
'Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim...' Note to the typescript, Annals of Aman
'... many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)' Note on the page for Myths Transformed, text V
'Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar -- emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.' Myths Transformed text VIII
These appear to hail from the late 1950s
I have a further question concerning text VIII in any case: immediately after noting the problem of the descendants of Thorondor, Tolkien asks if Maiar can become Orcs, answers yes, and then notes: '... but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.'
But does this not imply that Maiar could have descendants? If these spirits accept permanent incarnation as Eagles, it seems to me that Gwaehir and Landroval being descendants of Thorondor should not necessarily prohibit the idea of Thorondor being a Maia -- though I certainly agree he should procreate with a female Maia as an eagle, as opposed to a regular eagle.
If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem upon further reflection. But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.
I realize this was very much a record of 'thinking with the pen', but I'm wondering if others share my confusion here -- or if I'm off the path myself, creating my own confusion rather.
Also, in The Lost Road Christopher Tolkien comments about editorial alterations made the text published in The Silmarillion. With respect to a line in Of Beren and Lúthien, and Thorondor and two other Eagles from the steps of Angband:
(...) with wings swifter than the wind (p. 182). The draft text B has at this point: 'Thorondor led them, and the others were Lhandroval (Wide-wing) and Gwaewar his vassal.' In the following text C, also of 1937, this became: 'Thorondor was their leader; and with him were his mightiest vassals, wide-winged Lhandroval, and Gwaewar lord of the wind.' This was emended (in 1951) to 'Gwaihir the lord of storm', and in this form the passage is found in the QS [Quenta Silmarillion] manuscript. It was omitted in The Silmarillion on account of the passage in The Return of the King (VI. 4): 'There came Gwahir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother ... mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young.'
At the time, I did not understand the nature and dating of the end of QS. It now appears that there was no reason to suppress the names; in fact, it seems that Gwaewar was changed to Gwaihir to bring it into accord with The Lord of the Rings -- however this is to be interpreted.
However this is to be interpreted, yes. But it looks like we have Gwaihir, even if a descendant of old Thorondor, alive in the First Age. Although again, the external dating becomes an issue, and Tolkien's 'final' decision becomes a bit obscured here.
The Osanwe-kenta (c 1959-60) states: 'The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.' Author's note 5, where Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hroar by the Valar.
This singles Melian out, but not being published (which caused Tolkien's 'unfortunately' above in text VIII with respect to Thorondor), to my mind this would still not necessarily prohibit the notion of the eagles as Maiar, if desired. And I suppose Tolkien might not have been considering the eagles here, but that speculation is only so compelling, admittedly.
So the answer must once again be: East-elves 
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Time
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The Most Powerful of the Third Age
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Carnivoran
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Dec 11 2012, 7:13pm
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I really
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Nerven
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Dec 11 2012, 9:21pm
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What do you think of Elrond vs the Nazgul?
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CuriousG
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Dec 11 2012, 9:32pm
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I
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Nerven
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Dec 11 2012, 9:44pm
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A herald in battle would be a worthy leader and formidable fighter themselves
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 14 2012, 10:50am
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Welcome! And great question
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CuriousG
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Dec 11 2012, 9:25pm
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Nice list
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Carnivoran
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Dec 11 2012, 11:07pm
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Like your list
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elevorn
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Dec 12 2012, 3:58pm
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Agree on Gandalf
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CuriousG
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Dec 12 2012, 4:05pm
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They are all Maiar
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Aule
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Dec 20 2012, 5:55pm
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Where does it say that the Eagles are Maiar?
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CuriousG
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Dec 20 2012, 6:28pm
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Thorondor
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Aule
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Dec 20 2012, 6:38pm
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Gwaihir
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CuriousG
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Dec 20 2012, 6:52pm
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Correction
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Aule
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Dec 20 2012, 7:27pm
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Are you thinking of the fell beast?
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JessCej
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Dec 28 2012, 12:00am
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Some eagles: Maiar or not
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Elthir
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Dec 30 2012, 1:58pm
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And Ungoliant
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CuriousG
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Dec 30 2012, 4:41pm
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Oops
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CuriousG
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Dec 30 2012, 5:44pm
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Ungoliant's origin
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 30 2012, 8:29pm
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i don't go in for this sort of thing much
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geordie
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Dec 20 2012, 6:47pm
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I agree they don't rank neatly
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CuriousG
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Dec 20 2012, 7:04pm
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Power is definitely situational and varying
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Escapist
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Dec 20 2012, 7:08pm
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