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SilentLion
Rivendell
Dec 30 2012, 12:38am
Views: 4635
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The point is taken that we need to be careful about
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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mixing 'truths' about how a fictional world functions with how the real world functions. However, part of Tolkien's reasons for creating Middle Earth, and part of the reason why I find it such an interesting place, is that it provides a laboratory for exploring the nature of morality in our real world. Just as Einstein's 'thought experiments' eventually led to a deeper understanding of physics in our real world, there is every reason to believe that debate about the actions of fictional characters in good literature can lead to a deeper understanding of human behavior in the real world. I think I could make a case that tyrannical rulers who are driven by personal ambition do less harm than tyrants who are driven by an ideological certainty. Two leaders who Tolkien would have been familiar with who fit the personal ambition model were Napoleon and Bismark. Both were driven by a desire for personal power and glory that could be obtained by expanding the power and influence of their nation. Both could be ruthless in pressing their advantage or breaking alliances when it was to their advantage. Both could be considered 'evil' by someone who looked at the human costs of the wars they started. Since both were rivals to the U.K., Tolkien was likely to have considered them in a negative light. However, since they were really all about their own power and prestige, both were happy to latch onto good ideas that they thought would enhance their legacy. Napoleon established many of the public institutions of modern France, and Bismark is regarded as the father of a united Germany. On the whole, they have a mixed legacy where people could legitimately argue the extent of their positive or negative influence on history. The most truly destructive dictators of the 20th century were more about promoting the correctness of their ideology than their personal success or comfort. Throughout their reigns they pursued ever more destructive means to achieve the ends of their ideology. Tolkien was very familiar with Hitler and Stalin, and their legacies were very apparent at the time Tolkien was writing LOTR. Tolkien would not have been familiar with Pol Pot, but he was an ideological descendent of Stalin and Mao. So on the whole, I would say that 'Dark Lords' who govern based on an ideological purity are capable of much more profound evil than 'Dark Lords' who simply ruthlessly pursue their own personal ambition. Returning from the real-world to Tolkien's world, I can see a Dark Lord Gandalf who succumbed to the temptation of power represented by the Ring wanting to pursue ideals of fairness and beauty, and gradually seeing the need to eliminate first enemies, then allies and then whole peoples who resisted his plans.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Elrond and the ring
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Nerven
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Dec 15 2012, 3:48pm
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I find the text quite clear...
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Otaku-sempai
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Dec 15 2012, 3:55pm
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"If so"
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 15 2012, 6:29pm
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Elrond
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Nerven
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Dec 15 2012, 7:12pm
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I do not think
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 15 2012, 11:30pm
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Another
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Nerven
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Dec 16 2012, 9:59am
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I think so
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CuriousG
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Dec 16 2012, 4:25pm
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Very nice analysis
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ltnjmy
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Dec 17 2012, 5:25pm
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Especially Elrond...
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 25 2012, 4:18pm
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A moment of nostalgia
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sador
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Dec 25 2012, 9:32pm
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That
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Nerven
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Dec 26 2012, 10:17am
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Have often thought that Elrond is overlooked as a tragic figure
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SilentLion
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Dec 26 2012, 7:43pm
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Were you responding to me?
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sador
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Dec 27 2012, 6:46am
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Yes, I meant my post as a reply to yours
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SilentLion
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Dec 27 2012, 11:32pm
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Gandalf's temptation by the Ring (or Frodo)
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 1:44am
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I think in one of his Letters, Tolkien speculates that Gandalf
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SilentLion
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Dec 28 2012, 9:00pm
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Like Pol Pot and bad bunnies
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 9:20pm
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Good examples!
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SilentLion
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Dec 28 2012, 10:10pm
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Wait a second
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squire
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Dec 28 2012, 11:02pm
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The point is taken that we need to be careful about
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SilentLion
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Dec 30 2012, 12:38am
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Very interesting thoughts
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squire
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Dec 30 2012, 1:24am
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One wonders how Gandalf could be worse
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 30 2012, 4:15am
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Squire
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 30 2012, 4:09am
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Just joking, but
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 1:30am
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