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squire
Half-elven
Dec 28 2012, 11:02pm
Views: 4662
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I don't think we're on solid ground, when discussing the minds of tyrants, to use Pol Pot and a fictional character as if they were equally illustrative of the same point. Woundwort is comparable to Sauron, of course, because both are fictional expressions of their authors' ideas about the corruption of power. And Pol Pot is an excellent example of a real-world dictator who may (or may not, depending on the reliability of the evidence regarding his state of mind) have engaged in self-deception regarding his own tyrannical rule.
The question I would ask is, where did Tolkien and Adams get their ideas about the descent into tyranny? They must be working from their own understanding of the human soul and from examples in history, whether ancient or contemporary. I would look for those examples, rather than compare two authors with similar ideas, if I was inquiring into whether the authors' ideas have validity.
For instance: is Tolkien right, when he says in that letter that Gandalf as Ringlord would have been "far worse" than Sauron, because he would have been "self-righteous" rather than merely "righteous"? I admit I'm not really sure what distinction he is making here. As he notes, Gandalf "would have continued to rule and order things for `good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)."
"Wisdom" as such is a double-edged sword in Tolkien's vocabulary, since both Denethor and Sauron are deemed by Gandalf to be "wise" without having good sense. Yet, how in the quote above is Gandalf's tyranny "far worse" than Sauron's? As far as I can tell when I read the parts of LotR that describe Mordor, Sauron doesn't even pretend to rule his domain "for the benefit of his subjects", yet Tolkien says Gandalf would have.
???
Tolkien seems to be implying that Evil, honestly acting for its own aggrandizement, is in some way superior to Evil that does not admit that it is Evil. I would agree, in a theoretical or theological sense - but somehow I doubt there are any real-world examples of Tolkien's super-fine distinction between self-conscious and self-deceptive Evil in a ruling tyrant. In other words, I suspect that Gandalf would have been "far worse" than Sauron simply because Tolkien's moral philosophy requires that to be the case, rather than because it would actually true in our own real world.
squire online:
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Elrond and the ring
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Nerven
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Dec 15 2012, 3:48pm
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I find the text quite clear...
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Otaku-sempai
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Dec 15 2012, 3:55pm
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"If so"
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 15 2012, 6:29pm
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Elrond
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Nerven
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Dec 15 2012, 7:12pm
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I do not think
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 15 2012, 11:30pm
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Another
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Nerven
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Dec 16 2012, 9:59am
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I think so
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CuriousG
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Dec 16 2012, 4:25pm
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Very nice analysis
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ltnjmy
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Dec 17 2012, 5:25pm
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Especially Elrond...
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 25 2012, 4:18pm
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A moment of nostalgia
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sador
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Dec 25 2012, 9:32pm
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That
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Nerven
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Dec 26 2012, 10:17am
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Have often thought that Elrond is overlooked as a tragic figure
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SilentLion
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Dec 26 2012, 7:43pm
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Were you responding to me?
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sador
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Dec 27 2012, 6:46am
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Yes, I meant my post as a reply to yours
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SilentLion
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Dec 27 2012, 11:32pm
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Gandalf's temptation by the Ring (or Frodo)
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 1:44am
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I think in one of his Letters, Tolkien speculates that Gandalf
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SilentLion
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Dec 28 2012, 9:00pm
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Like Pol Pot and bad bunnies
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 9:20pm
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Good examples!
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SilentLion
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Dec 28 2012, 10:10pm
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Wait a second
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squire
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Dec 28 2012, 11:02pm
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The point is taken that we need to be careful about
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SilentLion
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Dec 30 2012, 12:38am
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Very interesting thoughts
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squire
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Dec 30 2012, 1:24am
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One wonders how Gandalf could be worse
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 30 2012, 4:15am
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Squire
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ElendilTheShort
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Dec 30 2012, 4:09am
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Just joking, but
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 1:30am
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