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CuriousG
Gondor
Dec 24 2012, 7:56pm
Views: 195
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The dark side of magic: Nazgul
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Welcome, Nolofinwe. I think Mim may be right that we need to define magic, if possible, to further explore noWizardme's OP. So I'll throw Nazgul magic into the mix, which I think is conventional magic and not technological.
1. The Witch-King vs. Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen in two magic acts: breaks Frodo's sword and renders Frodo mute. Then comes Elrond's magic of the river flood, which has touches of magic from Gandalf, purely for artistic effect. (Now really, why did Gandalf do that, other than out of vanity?)
2. The siege of Minas Tirith. The great gate withstood Grond until the W-King uttered a spell (three times) that made it burst. No gunpowder like Saruman used at Helm's Deep.
3. The W-King's threat to Eowyn that he wouldn't kill her but would leave her mind open to torment in Barad-dur. Maybe he meant that literally, but since he calls it her "naked mind" (I think; books not handy), I have always taken that to mean that she would be robbed of her body and left as a mind/spirit subject to endless torment. It gives me the chills to think of that threat, since it implies she can't die and will be in immortal hell.
4. I'm not sure about the Nazgul at Crickhollow. Fatty Bolger thinks he sees the gate open by itself, but maybe he just couldn't see them. But it seems more magical when they knock the door in just by pounding on it, unless they possibly have unusual strength.
Nazgul magic is violent magic, but I think Gandalf's magic in fighting the Balrog and the Wargs is violent too, as is Elrond flooding his local river. (Do you suppose Galadriel used the same trick when Dol Guldur attacked?) And Felagund fighting Sauron with songs of power seems like more than an artistic spat. It's also significant that Sauron sings back, hence he's as musical as an Elf and uses the same magic that they do.
So to circle back to Galadriel saying she's perplexed that hobbits use the same word for good and bad magic doesn't always hold up. I don't think flooding rivers in anger is "putting our love in all that we make." But it would make sense if there are different types of good magic. There's passive magic, such as Elven cloaks and watery mirrors, where you put your love into your creations and that has a life of its own, and the more active kind when you shut a door with a word of Command in a contest of wills or ring a kingdom of Doriath with--what, walls of deceit? I thought that was what the Enemy did?
The more I think about it, the more I think Mim is onto something with "Tolkien enjoys challenging the accepted use of words." Maybe he didn't really redefine magic, except in the passive sense I described, which I think is unique to him. Maybe he just wanted us to think about it.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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'The problem of magic' in Tolkien
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noWizardme
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Dec 18 2012, 11:53am
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A thought about games
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noWizardme
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Dec 18 2012, 1:33pm
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Galadriel and semantics
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CuriousG
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Dec 20 2012, 7:37pm
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Magic vs Blessed
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Cyberia
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Dec 21 2012, 12:22am
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Elvish magic (a helpful/distracting thought from "On Fairy Stories"
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noWizardme
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Dec 21 2012, 4:12pm
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Palantiri vs Skype
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CuriousG
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Dec 20 2012, 10:14pm
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Or the palantir as YouTube?
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noWizardme
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Dec 21 2012, 6:59pm
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Gandalf's magic: a wizard's must
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CuriousG
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Dec 21 2012, 2:51am
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Compare & Contrast: Terry Pratchett's witches
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noWizardme
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Dec 27 2012, 12:55pm
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Magic and knowledge to Medieval witch hunters
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 2:06am
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A problem of terminology
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Mim
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Dec 23 2012, 6:41pm
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Magic & Grace of Valar/Aman/Undying Lands
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 24 2012, 3:38pm
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You can add to that
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sador
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Dec 24 2012, 4:33pm
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The dark side of magic: Nazgul
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CuriousG
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Dec 24 2012, 7:56pm
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passive elven magic
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Cyberia
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Dec 24 2012, 10:10pm
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Light vs. Dark..
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 25 2012, 4:56am
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Perception of Lorien (and Imladris for that matter)
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 25 2012, 4:09pm
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Good comparisons
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CuriousG
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Dec 25 2012, 4:24pm
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Yes
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 25 2012, 4:31pm
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Evidence of anger?
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Otaku-sempai
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Dec 26 2012, 2:37pm
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Read Gandalf's explanation to Frodo
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CuriousG
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Dec 28 2012, 1:55am
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Well, to be fair...
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Otaku-sempai
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Dec 28 2012, 9:26pm
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Please do!
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noWizardme
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Dec 27 2012, 12:45pm
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Hobbit magic (to add to the pot!)
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noWizardme
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Dec 27 2012, 6:21pm
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Elves/Rivendell
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Nolofinwe
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Dec 31 2012, 3:05pm
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