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I would date this revision...

Elthir
Rohan

Dec 21 2012, 7:02pm


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I would date this revision... [In reply to] Can't Post

... more vaguely to not before 1955 (rather than 1965), which is quite vague, but I'm pretty sure even Christopher Tolkien only goes that far. The reasoning is that the revised section has Finrod son of Finarfin instead of [Inglor] Felagund son of Finrod, as first published in 1955.

In any case, much later than the Waldman letter is the case of Glorfindel, but Tolkien specifically points out the problem he is faced with there: the ban on the Noldor:


Quote

'Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor, rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm.'

JRRT, Glorfindel II




This is the ban before the end of the First Age not the later restriction from the Waldman letter. But...



Quote

Manwe, however, was not bound by his own ordinances, and being still the supreme ruler of the Kingdom of Arda could set them aside, when he saw fit.

JRRT, Glorfindel II




So exceptions were possible even at this time, and I think Glorfindel is clearly explained as one, in the fuller essay. One would think Finrod fell under this ban as well, and I'll note here -- considering the special ban on Galadriel at the end of the First Age -- that in the Silmarillion of the early 1950s, Finrod and Galadriel both lead the Exiles over the Grinding Ice. Yet still, in this same general phase, with Finrod's passing Tolkien will describe:


Quote

'But it is said that released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amarie.'

JRRT, Grey Annals c. 1951




I find 'soon' interesting here, as it seems to imply a quick forgiveness and bodily restoration -- another thing too, at this point [external perspective] Elven reincarnation was imagined as accomplished through rebirth as a child.

And since the Waldman letter is 'probably late 1951' there is no way (I'm guessing) to tell if this statement from The Grey Annals is necessarily later than the statement in the Waldman letter.

What we do know however, is that the conception of Felagund being seemingly reincarnated within the Blessed Realm exists within a phase when the Noldor are not later restricted to Tol Eressea -- as Felagund is said to walk there after his death in the same phase as the Gnomes are later allowed in Valinor after the defeat of Morgoth -- that is, in the same phase as the mid to later 1930s ending of Quenta Silmarillion, already posted in this thread.

Beyond late 1951 -- or text written after the infamous letter



So this section of the Lay 'recommenced' must be later than the Waldman letter. Two revisions of note: first Finrod's dying words to Beren, and then the Eldamar reference:

I now must go to my long rest
in Aman, there beyond the shore
of Eldamar for ever more
in memory to dwell' Thus died the king,
as still the elven harpers sing.

Canto IX

From Sirion's Isle they passed away,
but on the hill alone there lay,
a green grave, and a stone was set,
and there there lie the white bones yet
of Finrod fair, Finarfin's son,
unless that land be changed and gone,
or foundered in unfathomed seas,
while Finrod walks beneath the trees
in Eldamar and comes no more
to the grey world of tears and war.

from Canto X


In what period is Finrod imagined to return here? I guess it doesn't matter too much if he is allowed beyond Tol Eressea before or after the end of the First Age. Whether Tolkien was considering his 'new' statement from the letter or not [when he revised this section of the poem], might be raised, although that is only so compelling I guess -- but accepting this reference as certainly post-dating the letter, in my opinion we still have the notion that the Noldor appear to be able to 'dwell' in lands beyond Eressea, just not permanently -- if we imagine the restriction of the letter is still in play, so to speak...

... or with Finrod, we might possibly have another exception like Glorfindel and even the earlier ban. In any case, in the late text Glorfindel did not have to be born again as an Elf child, as by this late date Tolkien had rejected the earlier idea of how Elves were reincarnated.

Subject User Time
Exil Noldor-to Aman or to Tol Eressea? Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 10 2012, 4:28pm
    Good question elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Dec 10 2012, 5:38pm
    Letters or the Tale Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 11 2012, 4:10pm
        Not a fan of the idea Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 11 2012, 7:25pm
            Visiting Valinor? Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 11 2012, 8:18pm
            Like being stuck looking over the fence at the party CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 11 2012, 9:07pm
                edited version Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 11 2012, 9:34pm
                That´s Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 11 2012, 9:37pm
                    later citations Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 11 2012, 9:50pm
    it shouldn't be illegal. PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Dec 15 2012, 12:29am
    I've pondered this myself Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Dec 17 2012, 8:53pm
    Finrod walks with finarfin in eldamar Aule Send a private message to Aule Dec 20 2012, 5:42pm
        Interesting point... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 20 2012, 5:49pm
            You're trippin Aule Send a private message to Aule Dec 20 2012, 6:11pm
                Like I said Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 20 2012, 6:51pm
                    Beren and luthien only edited by Christopher. Aule Send a private message to Aule Dec 20 2012, 7:19pm
                        I looked in Voronwe's book Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 20 2012, 8:14pm
                            A bigger question--what about the others? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 20 2012, 8:31pm
                                Reincarnation Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 20 2012, 9:15pm
                                    That had to be a long line of people waiting to be judged after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 20 2012, 9:46pm
                                        Desire Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 20 2012, 10:49pm
                                            Beautiful, but sad CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 21 2012, 1:06am
                                                Sad but beautiful Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 21 2012, 1:19am
                            I would date this revision... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 21 2012, 7:02pm
                                The ban of the Noldor Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 12:24am
                                    I Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 7:15am
                                        Galadriel's home Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 3:29pm
                                        Late quotes Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 3:53pm
                                    Bodily return Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 2:58pm
                                        Glorfindel Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 3:35pm
                                            Goldilocks Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 4:09pm
                                                Manwe's ordinances Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 4:17pm
                                                    Glorfindel II Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 4:22pm
                                                        My Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 5:13pm
                                                            Ingil's return Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 5:45pm
                                                                I don't remember if anyone has brought this up Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 7:18pm
                                                                    I Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 7:26pm
                                                                        It's says the Eldar Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 7:31pm
                                                                            Yes, Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 7:40pm
                                                                                The Noldor Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 7:45pm
                                                                                    You Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 7:48pm
                                                                                        In some versions Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 7:55pm
                                                                        external chronology Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 8:02pm
                                                        But he's gone through purgatory Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 22 2012, 7:15pm
                                                            How many Sun Years Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 8:22pm
                                                                I Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 8:32pm
                                                                    Exil Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 22 2012, 8:41pm
                                                                        Good question Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 22 2012, 9:15pm
                                                                            Tolkien Nerven Send a private message to Nerven Dec 23 2012, 12:21pm
                                                                Yeah, something like that Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 23 2012, 2:38am
            Chill Aule Send a private message to Aule Dec 20 2012, 6:18pm
        I thought of the same thing after reading Finwe's post... CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 20 2012, 6:23pm
            Tone Aule Send a private message to Aule Dec 20 2012, 6:33pm
                Finarfin CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 20 2012, 6:45pm
        This statement... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Dec 20 2012, 11:04pm

 
 
 

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