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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Hope you don't mind....


Nov 20 2012, 11:07am

Views: 1035
Hope you don't mind.... [In reply to] Can't Post

turning this into a conversation...

In Reply To
Wizard as a general term? I don't think it works...However, it is clear that "wizards" are not just the Istari....

Actually, that's good enough for me. I only meant "general" as in "not just Istari" really. Any "lore-master" might be called a wizard in The Hobbit's terminology, I think. It's all about having "the knowledge" - the store of transmitted wisdom and skills that ordinary people had no access to.

In Reply To
It [that Elrond may already know the story Gandalf tells about the White Council] runs counter to my intuitive reading (and to squire's), but it might work.

Yes indeed, I know squire and I aren't on the same page about this - I've made this argument before, on the Hobbit Movie board, and as you'll see if you read the replies, squire was not impressed at all! Crazy But I have to admit that I'm sometimes tempted to push my "metafictional" speculations beyond any reasonable bounds...

In Reply To
Really? I see no hint that the Master acknowledges Bard as king. Once Aragorn becomes King, he might claim overlordship over both - but not at the present.

Perhaps you're right. I had always just assumed that a King would trump a Master, and that even if a Master might have substantial freedom of action he would always be positioned in the feudal hierarchy below the King. If there's any evidence either way about Bard, I'd be interested to hear it -my knowledge of the Appendices, Unifinished Tales and so on is very limited. Your evidence drawn from the messy politics of medieval Europe is interesting, but I'm not sure you can really explain away the acknowledged overlordship of the Emperor as being just because he was Holy. It's true that real-world feudalism, by its very nature, had the Christian God at the top of the apex, but fantasy feudalism has the same structure, I think, just with a more fluid notion of providence or destiny providing the almost-but-not-quite-divine right of kings. (Also, I think England might be a better real-world template than continental Europe, and the King was very much acknowledged there as the ultimate authority over what the traders of the growing towns did - my own home town of Preston still holds a celebration once every 20 years to commemorate being given "guild" status by Henry II in 1179!)

And if Bard is still ultimately responsible for Lake-town, that would explain how they got a new Master and new funds for rebuilding...

In Reply To
Please. I am doing my utmost to avoid drawing any contemporary connections...

Oops, sorry! Blush But the Master is quite a modern character, don't you think? I'm interested to see what Stephen Fry will make of him.

In Reply To
I'll make myself clearer: in the 1960 rewrite of the first two chapters, Tolkien did indeed change "tobacco" to "pipe-weed" in all occurances, even having Bilbo offer Gandalf some Old Toby.

Oh, that's interesting! I didn't know about these changes, which appear not to have been made in currently available editions. At least, my 1999 HarperCollins paperback has 'tobacco' throughout, starting with:
“What do you mean?” he said. “Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”

“All of them at once,” said Bilbo. “And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain."
My e-book (bought in the last few months) has the same, although it's probably based on the same edition. Do you know if other currently available editions do have pipe-weed instead?

On the whole, I think "pipe-weed", with its apparent reference to a different smokable substance, has caused more confusion than leaving the word "tobacco" would have done! But Tolkien was probably innocent of all such connotations when he came up with it, just as he must have been about "Teleporno" and "Bilbo's Last Lay"!


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings

Subject User Time
The Last Stage, part IV - Politics and Property sador Send a private message to sador Nov 18 2012, 4:44pm
    Thoughts Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Nov 18 2012, 9:13pm
        I'm not so sure sador Send a private message to sador Nov 20 2012, 8:43am
            For the most part, I agree... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Nov 20 2012, 1:02pm
    Tales and terminology FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Nov 18 2012, 9:40pm
        ''wizard' as a general term? sador Send a private message to sador Nov 20 2012, 9:32am
            Hope you don't mind.... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Nov 20 2012, 11:07am
                Not at all, but also yes sador Send a private message to sador Nov 20 2012, 2:21pm
                    His arm has grown long CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Nov 20 2012, 2:50pm
                    *embarrassed* FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Nov 21 2012, 8:45am
    The magic of politics CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Nov 20 2012, 12:58pm
        Answering without explaining sador Send a private message to sador Nov 22 2012, 3:48pm


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