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But of course!

sador
Valinor


Oct 22 2012, 9:53am


Views: 160
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But of course! [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I must disagree with you on several accounts:

The first says that the treasures (hoards, necklaces, gilded swords and so on) were made for "many a king and elvish lord"
"For ancient king". That's not so many.

"For... elvish lord" is a clearer statement of whom some of the treasures were intended for.
What makes you think these are still in the hoard?

Perhaps Voronwe could tell us if this constitutes a binding statement of ownership or claim to the treasure?
If the treasure was already paid for and not delivered, it is. But in the only case I know of in which such a transaction was carried out, the Elven-king was supposed to pay after delivery, and then cheated on the dwarves.
If it was merely ordered, then why would that be a claim?
If the said elven-lord would have brought the raw materials, then we have a nice legal question. But as far as I understand, the Mountain itself was the source of the dwarves' wealth; do you think Girion lord of Dale brought tons of gold up the river and gave it to Thror for fashioning?

There are three items which we know of and might belong to someone else:
1. Bilbo's mithril-coat - which was originally made for an elf-prince; but we do not know how it got the the hoard. For example, was it given as payment for some services? But at any rate, the source of mithril was Moria, so unless some unknown elf bought the mithril from Thorin's ancestors, and then brought it to the Mountain for repairs, or fitting a helmet - Thorin seems well within his rights in giving it freely to Bilbo. Or do you think Frodo was saved by a stolen item?
2. The spears of King Bladorthin - of which we know nothing.
3. The necklace of Girion, which might have been brought to the Mountain by Smaug - but if so, how would Thorin and Balin assume it would be there? At any rate, Dain gave it to Bard above and beyond the fourteenth part which was agreed upon; and there is no real reason to assume that Thorin would have done otherwise.

The second passage gives an account of what happened at Dale, to the dwarves' neighbours, men. This acknowledges that it was not merely the dwarves who suffered when Smaug took up residence at the Lonely Mountain. Actually it seems the attack on men were at one time understood to be intrinsic to the attack on Erebor, their suffering and losses mutual.
Or it was a way of claiming Smaug's might. But that was a lay about the past, not a song about the present; and it ended with hope for the future of dwarves, and them alone. I do not see any significance to this difference.


So again, given Bard's role, and how the dwarves felt at one time about their shared fortunes, it is surprising that Thorin's first order of business was to determine not to share any of the wealth.
This is plain ridiculous. His first order of business was not to surrender any part of the treasure under force of arms. According to what Roac told him, two armies are marching to his home to sieze the treasure. Roac did suggest bribing them to go away - but he must have known the effect that would have.
Anyway, buying off people who come to take all that you have, is hardly sharing.

In fact any claim to any part of the hoard was immediately perceived by him as a threat.
No.
In fact, the first thing he did once inside the Mountain, was to give Bilbo a princely gift, once again, above and beyond their agreement - which he didn't retract even after Bilbo betrayed him. (It is a nice touch of irony how at the very moment, Bilbo was witholding the only item in the hoard which Thorin really wanted)

Consider too that rather than sending bird messengers or envoys of peace to the elves and men straight away
To the elves? What for? The last time he sent anyone to the elves to beg for food they evaded him, and finally took him prisoner.
And he knows from Roac that the men are marching to take the treasure, and are blaming the dwarves for their misfortunes (I wonder what Roac's agenda was, but that's another subject).

instead he sent messengers out for reinforcements.
For his family and subjects to join him. But yes, they would strengthen his position and defend him.

When he said he would not negotiate under siege, not only was he buying time, but, well, it was a lie -- he was not interested in negotiating under any circumstance.
This is your own indictment, and it is completely unwarranted.


"Heart of the mountain...heart of Thorin...and now, Gandalf says "keep your heart up" . Anyone care to comment on the repeated use of that image?"
- weaver



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for A Thief in the Night!

Subject User Time
**The Gathering of the Clouds** III Curious Send a private message to Curious Oct 20 2012, 5:03am
    Responses Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 21 2012, 1:44pm
    Answers sador Send a private message to sador Oct 21 2012, 1:48pm
        What's missing? SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 21 2012, 7:26pm
            But of course! sador Send a private message to sador Oct 22 2012, 9:53am
                Yes opening with a misquote is a weak gambit. SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 22 2012, 8:27pm
                    No sympathy? sador Send a private message to sador Oct 23 2012, 3:29pm
                        small quibble this morning Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Oct 23 2012, 3:45pm
                            But without people of Thorin's passion Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Oct 23 2012, 3:46pm
                        But surely Bard wasn't motivated by greed alone SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 23 2012, 4:16pm
                            I wonder how much of a difference it would have made Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Oct 23 2012, 7:20pm
                                Yes, true SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 23 2012, 9:19pm
                                    I've been wondering about Gandalf too FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Oct 24 2012, 9:48am
                            I expect so. sador Send a private message to sador Oct 24 2012, 10:21am
                                What is the balance? SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 24 2012, 1:38pm

 
 
 

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