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squire
Half-elven
Oct 14 2012, 1:35pm
Views: 1275
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Can one be "willing" or "unwilling" when one no longer has a will?
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I agree with you that we can hardly see the Nazgul as "oppressed slaves", since that implies they would take freedom if they could get it, in the manner of the cynical orcs. But there is a magic here that precludes the opposite conclusion as well, that they are somehow "in sympathy" with Sauron or "feel entirely on his side". Both characterizations credit the Nazgul with some kind of independent sense of being, and I think Tolkien intends us to realize that that is exactly what the Nazgul lack. They do Sauron's work neither willingly nor unwillingly, but simply because they have become metaphysical extensions of him, via the rings they bear and the One Ring that contains Sauron's essential spirit. Tolkien is more explicit about this in his writings that followed the completion of The Lord of the Rings:
At length [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held. ("The Hunt for the Ring", Unfinished Tales) [Had Frodo claimed the Ring in Mount Doom without interference by Gollum, the Nazgul would have been dispatched to stall him until Sauron himself could come.] I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand–laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. (Letter 246, September 1963)
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Subject
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Time
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A so called "inconsistency"
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aruman
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Oct 11 2012, 12:54pm
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Your conclusion is what I've always thought myself.
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CuriousG
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Oct 11 2012, 4:28pm
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Thanks...
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aruman
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Oct 11 2012, 6:04pm
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Inconsistency is as inconsistency does
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squire
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Oct 11 2012, 6:41pm
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Inconsistency vs. complexity
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CuriousG
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Oct 11 2012, 8:13pm
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Exactly
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aruman
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Oct 12 2012, 1:34am
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That's not what I would call complexity.
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sador
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Oct 12 2012, 12:41pm
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"No doubt?" Really?
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aruman
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Oct 12 2012, 3:33pm
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Plenty of doubt, when you think about it
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CuriousG
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Oct 12 2012, 7:10pm
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technically, runes versus letters...
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Elthir
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Oct 13 2012, 10:24pm
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Thank you!
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aruman
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Oct 14 2012, 4:51pm
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What reason would Sauron have at that point...
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mandel
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Oct 11 2012, 11:56pm
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Maybe
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aruman
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Oct 12 2012, 1:30am
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From Parma Eldalamberon 17, Saura (Quenya) = foul, vile...
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Tweezers of Thu
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Oct 12 2012, 12:49pm
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So, it's not his real name.
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Elizabeth
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Oct 12 2012, 8:47pm
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By Jove, er, Jupiter, I mean...Zeus!
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Tweezers of Thu
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Oct 12 2012, 10:08pm
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My take...
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Morthoron
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Oct 13 2012, 1:45am
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This...
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Tweezers of Thu
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Oct 13 2012, 3:57pm
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A Dark Lord by any other name...
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Elthir
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Oct 13 2012, 10:48pm
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You might be right, i.e., . . .
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Tweezers of Thu
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Oct 15 2012, 1:25pm
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My take on it as well and what is Aragorn's "real" name anyway?
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telain
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Oct 19 2012, 1:19pm
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S is for Sauron
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Elthir
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Oct 19 2012, 6:09pm
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true, true!
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telain
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Oct 20 2012, 11:25am
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The meaning 'disgusting, foul, vile'...
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Elthir
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Oct 13 2012, 10:30pm
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Thanks for the correction!
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Tweezers of Thu
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Oct 13 2012, 10:46pm
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Another distinction
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Phibbus
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Oct 18 2012, 3:47am
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Why do you assume the MoS was permitted to use the name?
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Noel Q. von Schneiffel
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Oct 20 2012, 12:49pm
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Perhaps there is consistency
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Plurmo
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Oct 12 2012, 4:27am
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I think you've hit the nail on the head.
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FarFromHome
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Oct 12 2012, 10:35am
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It could have been
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 13 2012, 8:36am
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That would be me...
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FarFromHome
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Oct 14 2012, 11:58am
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Can one be "willing" or "unwilling" when one no longer has a will?
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squire
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Oct 14 2012, 1:35pm
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Good point
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FarFromHome
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Oct 14 2012, 8:21pm
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I'm of the opinion loyalty must be a willing choice
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 15 2012, 6:52am
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A couple great points here
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aruman
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Oct 14 2012, 5:10pm
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Question
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aruman
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Oct 14 2012, 5:19pm
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Excellent question
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CuriousG
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Oct 18 2012, 8:13pm
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The Difficulty of having a Lord one can't name...
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Morthoron
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Oct 19 2012, 3:49am
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Very nice!
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sador
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Oct 21 2012, 8:25am
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