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That would be me...

FarFromHome
Valinor


Oct 14 2012, 11:58am


Views: 551
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That would be me... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
...there were comments above about the Nazgul as willing servants of Sauron....this is the opposite to the real situation. They were utterly enslaved through their rings

And you're right, calling the Nazgul "willing servants" is to ignore their backstory completely. I wasn't thinking of the backstory though, but of the story's present, after the Nazgul had long ago gone over completely to the "dark side", and had become trusted servants of Sauron. I'm no expert on the Appendices and other writings, that's for sure, but as far as I can see the Nazgul are long past feeling any reluctance about serving Sauron, and now feel entirely on his side. At least, if their thoughts at Crickhollow ("Let the little people blow! Sauron would deal with them later...") are more than just the invention of the narrator(s), then they suggest to me that the Nazgul feel themselves in sympathy with Sauron. You're right of course that they were "enslaved" long ago, but I think they now serve Sauron willingly, and out of more than just fear. In this they are very different from the orcs, who (as the hobbits see and hear at first hand) are always looking for ways to rebel, and are only kept in line by the fear that they are under constant surveillance by the impersonal, unknowable Eye. (Think East Germany, The Lives of Others, Nineteen Eighty-Four...)

That's what I noticed when I read the sections in which we overhear orcs' thoughts and behaviour. They never mention Sauron by name, and always call him the "Great Eye".
It's almost a taboo, or a kind of group-think. It's different with other races - Sauron can't cow them in the same way because his "Eye" doesn't (yet) reach that far. So when talking to Dwarves, Men or whoever, Sauron's servants do present him as a personal Dark Lord and use his name accordingly.

So if Tolkien "goofed", I reckon he only goofed in not spelling out his thoughts completely in Aragorn's words. I find it hard to believe that an author would know his own characters so poorly that he would write something about one of them (and his chief villain at that!) that's just wrong. And I certainly don't buy answers that offend the conventions of storytelling (such as "the info was out of date", or "Aragorn doesn't know everything"), because whatever else he may be accused of, Tolkien is an excellent storyteller, and by storytelling convention, information that is given in this unqualified way is meant to be accepted by the reader as correct. Those kinds of explanations would only work if there was some payoff for them, which there isn't. By the law of Occam's Razor, then, I would argue that the simplest explanation is that Tolkien was writing something that did make sense in his own mind
for Sauron's character, but that he never spelled out well enough to satisfy the nitpickers among us!

Tongue


(Edited to add: sorry I got a bit far from my reply to your point, ElendilTheShort. Blush Some of the above is just meant as general rambling theorizing on the original topic...)

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Oct 14 2012, 12:06pm)

Subject User Time
A so called "inconsistency" aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 11 2012, 12:54pm
    Your conclusion is what I've always thought myself. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 11 2012, 4:28pm
        Thanks... aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 11 2012, 6:04pm
    Inconsistency is as inconsistency does squire Send a private message to squire Oct 11 2012, 6:41pm
        Inconsistency vs. complexity CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 11 2012, 8:13pm
            Exactly aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 12 2012, 1:34am
            That's not what I would call complexity. sador Send a private message to sador Oct 12 2012, 12:41pm
                "No doubt?" Really? aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 12 2012, 3:33pm
                    Plenty of doubt, when you think about it CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 12 2012, 7:10pm
            technically, runes versus letters... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Oct 13 2012, 10:24pm
                Thank you! aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 14 2012, 4:51pm
        What reason would Sauron have at that point... mandel Send a private message to mandel Oct 11 2012, 11:56pm
            Maybe aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 12 2012, 1:30am
            From Parma Eldalamberon 17, Saura (Quenya) = foul, vile... Tweezers of Thu Send a private message to Tweezers of Thu Oct 12 2012, 12:49pm
                So, it's not his real name. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Oct 12 2012, 8:47pm
                    By Jove, er, Jupiter, I mean...Zeus! Tweezers of Thu Send a private message to Tweezers of Thu Oct 12 2012, 10:08pm
                        My take... Morthoron Send a private message to Morthoron Oct 13 2012, 1:45am
                            This... Tweezers of Thu Send a private message to Tweezers of Thu Oct 13 2012, 3:57pm
                        A Dark Lord by any other name... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Oct 13 2012, 10:48pm
                            You might be right, i.e., . . . Tweezers of Thu Send a private message to Tweezers of Thu Oct 15 2012, 1:25pm
                    My take on it as well and what is Aragorn's "real" name anyway? telain Send a private message to telain Oct 19 2012, 1:19pm
                        S is for Sauron Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Oct 19 2012, 6:09pm
                            true, true! telain Send a private message to telain Oct 20 2012, 11:25am
                The meaning 'disgusting, foul, vile'... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Oct 13 2012, 10:30pm
                    Thanks for the correction! Tweezers of Thu Send a private message to Tweezers of Thu Oct 13 2012, 10:46pm
        Another distinction Phibbus Send a private message to Phibbus Oct 18 2012, 3:47am
        Why do you assume the MoS was permitted to use the name? Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Oct 20 2012, 12:49pm
    Perhaps there is consistency Plurmo Send a private message to Plurmo Oct 12 2012, 4:27am
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Oct 12 2012, 10:35am
    It could have been ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 13 2012, 8:36am
        That would be me... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Oct 14 2012, 11:58am
            Can one be "willing" or "unwilling" when one no longer has a will? squire Send a private message to squire Oct 14 2012, 1:35pm
                Good point FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Oct 14 2012, 8:21pm
                    I'm of the opinion loyalty must be a willing choice ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 15 2012, 6:52am
            A couple great points here aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 14 2012, 5:10pm
    Question aruman Send a private message to aruman Oct 14 2012, 5:19pm
        Excellent question CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 18 2012, 8:13pm
            The Difficulty of having a Lord one can't name... Morthoron Send a private message to Morthoron Oct 19 2012, 3:49am
                Very nice! sador Send a private message to sador Oct 21 2012, 8:25am

 
 
 

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