|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
elostirion74
Rohan
Oct 12 2012, 3:59pm
Views: 4403
Shortcut
|
Since I haven't read the essays you're talking about, I cannot comment specifically about the ideas as ideas. Still an essay is an essay and not a story and for me the stories are the heart and the ideas only interesting because they throw light on or deepen one's appreciation of the stories. Do you find that new ideas or conceptions of orcs in these essays in any way resonate with or throw new light on the portrayal of orcs either in The Hobbit or LoTR? Or in The Silmarillion? Is there available any version of a story or part of a story where these different kinds of orcs are being portrayed or mentioned? Of course it's possible to lead a purely theoretical discussion about how Tolkien actually thought of orcs and their nature. But without a reference to concrete stories or versions of stories, such a discussion quickly can deteriorate into mere speculation about possibilities - it takes place in what I would call a void. What such parts of essays show is how Tolkien grappled with and continued to reconsider fundamental ideas about orcs, but never actually managed to go any further with it in practice. You could never know if these conceptions of orcs would end up as one of those many drafts or thoughts which would be abandonded. What you're actually left with are the stories and versions of stories that Tolkien managed to write. Christopher Tolkien wrote in the foreword to The Silmarillion that in his latest years Tolkien devoted himself more to theological and philosophical preoccupations of his mythology and his prose and poetry came more in the background. It strikes me that the essays you're talking about in Morgoth's Ring are part of this tendency. Christopher Tolkien also wrote that trying to show The Silmarillion as a continuing evolvement of over half a decade would only lead to confusion and submerge what is essential. The discussion about the development of Tolkien's ideas are only applicable to the understanding of The Silmarillion, since LoTR was never rewritten and the rewriting of The Hobbit was abandonded. With The Silmarillion you have many different versions and concepts for the same stories and there you can argue which versions should be considered to have primacy and which shouldn't. But if the story is to succeed as a story or cycle of stories it still needs a very disciplined approach, where you select versions which are compatible with each other and produce a reasonably coherent and consistent tale. When you adapt The Hobbit, you adapt a story with its own internal logic and vision, and most of all you adapt a story and not a random collection of fragments and ideas. It's definitely useful to have a knowledge of Tolkien's ideas, but the main basis is the story you're trying to adapt, not speculations and thoughts put forth in essays that are not relevant to the story. By the way I've already accepted and understood that the adaptation of the Hobbit enhances and elaborates the context around the main story, but I still expect that what they actually put on film should lead back to hints, themes and ideas in the original story.
|
|
|
Subject
|
User
|
Time
|
Those with concerns...
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 4 2012, 1:43pm
|
personally
|
elevorn
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:16pm
|
Well
|
Shelob'sAppetite
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:24pm
|
oops
|
elevorn
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
|
But you are arguing for the elevation of CGI details
|
Shelob'sAppetite
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:22am
|
lighting
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:15pm
|
Lighter tone (SPOILERS)
|
comandantedavid
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:46pm
|
Yes, i fully believe that ....
|
Dlanor da Great
|
Oct 4 2012, 9:58pm
|
One can only hope so//
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 4 2012, 10:01pm
|
Ah but it is a basically negative and cynical thread
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:33pm
|
Book v film.
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:45pm
|
Tolkien did not complete the rewrite of the Hobbit because he realized that it would
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:02pm
|
No, he didn't complete the rewrite
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 5 2012, 6:59am
|
Tolkien made his own choice not to finish the rewrite of The Hobbit
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:32pm
|
Largely comercial
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 5 2012, 3:15pm
|
O.K., that poem gave me chills. Thanks Kangi!
|
Ethel Duath
|
Oct 5 2012, 10:02pm
|
You are welcome.
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 5 2012, 11:23pm
|
perspective
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:16pm
|
I don't know about that... book SPOILER
|
comandantedavid
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:32pm
|
Characterizations in Film 1
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:41pm
|
actually I have viewed everything
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:04pm
|
Open minded?
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 4 2012, 6:08pm
|
That's true ! We can only judge the trailer in itself !
|
Fàfnir
|
Oct 4 2012, 6:56pm
|
I fully agree with the need for openmindedness
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 4 2012, 11:07pm
|
Heh Lacrimae
|
tolktolk
|
Oct 5 2012, 7:10am
|
you speak wisdom.
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:37pm
|
Dwarves don't realize what they are getting in to
|
digibrink
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:50pm
|
a thousand times yes
|
There&ThereAgain
|
Oct 4 2012, 7:35pm
|
People with this viewpoint should read...
|
DwellerInDale
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:22pm
|
Mods up.//
|
Owain
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:49pm
|
I think that they WOULD have become such generational classics if they had kept the number of films
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 5 2012, 12:21am
|
Just a note on The Wizard of Oz
|
Sunflower
|
Oct 5 2012, 9:25am
|
Just a note on Bambi
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 5 2012, 4:08pm
|
A further note on Bambi:)
|
Sunflower
|
Oct 6 2012, 4:29am
|
thanks Sunflower
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 6 2012, 12:14pm
|
Happy animal stories
|
Sunflower
|
Oct 7 2012, 6:01pm
|
Wind in the Willows
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 7 2012, 7:19pm
|
William Horwood wrote a sequal
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 7 2012, 8:54pm
|
WOT!
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 7 2012, 10:34pm
|
Booooorn Freeeee!
|
Phibbus
|
Oct 8 2012, 2:31am
|
Black Beauty,
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 8 2012, 2:49pm
|
3D
|
Marionette
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:41pm
|
If teh film ends up looking bad in 2D
|
Shelob'sAppetite
|
Oct 4 2012, 2:43pm
|
A thread that starts with
|
DanielLB
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
|
I don't agree
|
shadowdog
|
Oct 4 2012, 3:04pm
|
Hobbit vs LoTR
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:01pm
|
I think PJ is in a no win situation
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:27pm
|
Lighter Tone and Such
|
Beren0nehanded
|
Oct 4 2012, 4:55pm
|
I'm worried that this film is for the mainstream adience
|
stoutfiles
|
Oct 4 2012, 6:52pm
|
beating a dead horse
|
There&ThereAgain
|
Oct 4 2012, 7:32pm
|
It feels like Star Wars all over...
|
Intergalactic Lawman
|
Oct 5 2012, 12:25am
|
Too many parallels?
|
Estel78
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:37am
|
not that I agree with everything he said
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:47am
|
They did that in LOTR as well sometimes.
|
Estel78
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:53am
|
okay..why not just relax and try Not of over-analyize
|
Bombadil
|
Oct 5 2012, 2:30am
|
Because
|
Shelob'sAppetite
|
Oct 5 2012, 4:38am
|
But...
|
flowww
|
Oct 5 2012, 6:56am
|
If you are stopped at the relative beardlessness of the dwarves
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:50pm
|
I reckon
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 5 2012, 3:50pm
|
What do you mean ? Some people don't do it ? //
|
Fàfnir
|
Oct 5 2012, 3:55pm
|
"growling Khuzdul at folk in the street" :D This is off-topic, but
|
Ethel Duath
|
Oct 5 2012, 10:11pm
|
Agreed with Bomby
|
Ring-Bearer
|
Oct 6 2012, 3:10am
|
Nonsense
|
Beutlin
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:15pm
|
This film
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 5 2012, 12:13pm
|
Mods up!
|
Eleniel
|
Oct 5 2012, 12:43pm
|
atmosphere
|
triptrap
|
Oct 5 2012, 1:56pm
|
In the Spirit of Tolkien....Or not.
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 5 2012, 4:13pm
|
Questions
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 5 2012, 6:50pm
|
I loved
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 5 2012, 8:11pm
|
to be honest
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 6 2012, 12:40am
|
ok
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 6 2012, 7:55am
|
Oh I do enjoy a bit of research.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 6 2012, 9:46am
|
Canon
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 6 2012, 1:11pm
|
well, that seems quite a stretch to me
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 6 2012, 2:34pm
|
Canon
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 6 2012, 2:54pm
|
well
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 6 2012, 3:20pm
|
canon
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 6 2012, 3:39pm
|
hmm
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 7 2012, 12:36am
|
Barrow wights would be one example to consider to the contrary
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 7 2012, 12:58am
|
You probably know this.
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 7 2012, 7:14am
|
I'm not sure I would agree with that.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 7 2012, 10:41am
|
So
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 7 2012, 11:52am
|
*Scratches head*
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 7 2012, 12:15pm
|
Not that clear-cut.
|
Tim
|
Oct 7 2012, 1:10pm
|
Wight =/= Wright
|
SirDennisC
|
Oct 7 2012, 4:24pm
|
canon
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 7 2012, 5:02pm
|
etymology
|
Magpie
|
Oct 7 2012, 5:43pm
|
Barrow-wights
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 7 2012, 8:31pm
|
I found this, I think its from the letters?
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 6 2012, 6:56pm
|
Not from Letters
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
|
Oct 6 2012, 8:05pm
|
as I said in my post, I found the quotes,
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 6 2012, 9:56pm
|
No problem -
|
geordie
|
Oct 7 2012, 9:10am
|
yes sorry for any confusion
|
Elenorflower
|
Oct 7 2012, 2:59pm
|
well
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 7 2012, 1:09am
|
well since Tolkien was a linguist...
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 8 2012, 3:26pm
|
I'm afraid that if you trouble to look beyond internet rubbish like this
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 8 2012, 6:42pm
|
we can agree to disagree
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 8 2012, 7:08pm
|
Again you fail to understand.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 8 2012, 7:30pm
|
And you don't know Tolkien didn't mean Black magic / Sorcerer its all open to interpretation
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 8 2012, 8:31pm
|
Absolutely correct.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 8 2012, 8:39pm
|
the point is
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 8 2012, 8:55pm
|
Good grief.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 8 2012, 9:07pm
|
Reanimating the Dead
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 9 2012, 12:23am
|
Yeah I know
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 9 2012, 12:43am
|
It seems that you have missed them.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 9 2012, 11:34am
|
LOL
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 10 2012, 12:59am
|
You two can be so mean, lolol
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 10 2012, 3:47am
|
That is a type of Necromancy and zombiedom, though. I don't mean to challange
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 9 2012, 4:47am
|
It's zombies in particular which don't seem very Tolkien-ish
|
Fardragon
|
Oct 9 2012, 7:36am
|
Yet, for all intents and purposes, I think that most people would still consider
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 9 2012, 11:59pm
|
Looking at the evidence, I fail to see what the problem is
|
Tim
|
Oct 8 2012, 7:51pm
|
Who would have thought
|
Kangi Ska
|
Oct 9 2012, 1:21am
|
evidence
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 10 2012, 3:34pm
|
Thank you
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 4:51pm
|
Why not call it an Orc-wight
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:04pm
|
well...
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:20pm
|
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:27pm
|
Orcs or as they were referred to in the Hobbit Goblins
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:32pm
|
Have you read Morgoth's Ring?
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:38pm
|
were talking common place orcs and Goblins here
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:46pm
|
I don't follow.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 9:54pm
|
where in the hobbit or the appendices did he mention them?
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 10:09pm
|
I can't quite believe that you cannot follow the thread of the argument.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 10:22pm
|
no I follow
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 10:26pm
|
No it is not pertaining to the films. If you go back and re-read you will see that.
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 10:36pm
|
well since I brought this thread up about concerns about the films
|
Sinister71
|
Oct 10 2012, 11:03pm
|
Yes the discussion about the possibility
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 10 2012, 11:27pm
|
Filling in the blanks
|
Black Breathalizer
|
Oct 12 2012, 2:06am
|
I hate to keep giving fodder to non-cannon liberties. I REALLY do! Yet I think
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 11 2012, 8:59pm
|
Well, much as I dislike some of the changes, if Bolg is going to challenge Gandalf, I damn sure hope he is presented as a demon orc
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 11 2012, 8:53pm
|
hmmm
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 11 2012, 3:36pm
|
I tend to agree
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 11 2012, 5:59pm
|
long answer
|
elostirion74
|
Oct 12 2012, 3:59pm
|
Well it rather depends on what you find interesting but
|
Lacrimae Rerum
|
Oct 12 2012, 4:56pm
|
Now this is a good argument,
|
AinurOlorin
|
Oct 11 2012, 8:21pm
|
|
|
|