|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 12 2012, 10:35am
Views: 1368
Shortcut
|
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I agree there's no "inconsistency" here, just a lack of detail in that discussion between Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. If Tolkien had chosen to go off on a digression to spell out the complexity (as CuriousG puts it) in Sauron's use of his name amongst his servants, then perhaps his son (who apparently was always on the lookout for inconsistencies in his father's work, sometimes to his father's chagrin!) wouldn't have felt the need to repair something that didn't actually need fixing. I agree with you that Aragorn & co's conversation was entirely on the level of the badges of the orcs, and at that level Tolkien goes on as the story progresses to show very clearly how that worked. I just re-read the chapter The Uruk-hai last night, because your post made me realize that some of the traits I noticed in the different groups of orcs in our last discussion might be made clearer in light of what you said. And indeed, in that chapter you can see a clear difference between the Uruk-hai, who call themselves servants of Saruman, and who seem to feel some kind of orcish loyalty to him, and the Mordor orcs who, although they do talk about Lugburz, i.e. Mordor, never mention Sauron by name, and only talk about him as the Great Eye that they all fear. Sauron's orcs, it seems, were to think of him only as this disembodied, impersonal Eye, an all-permeating sense of being observed that keeps them to their tasks not by any personal attachment to an actual lord and master, but only by fear of being seen and punished. He doesn't want them to feel loyalty to him, or even feel they "know" him - he just wants them to feel the nameless fear of being constantly watched. It's not uncommon in mythical stories for a villain to be someone Who Must Not Be Named - but it's usually the victims of the villain who are afraid to use the name, not his own servants. Sauron uses this psychological fear of the name against his own orcs. The Nazgul on the other hand, as Sauron's high-level enforcers, do seem to have a personal loyalty to him. So they are free to think of him not just as the Great Eye (except when they're putting the frighteners on orcs, no doubt) but as Sauron, the Dark Lord they admire and serve willingly. The same presumably goes in spades for the Mouth of Sauron. It's all there in the story, when you come to look. I've always found the Uruk-hai chapter rather confusing, but I''m now thinking that there's quite an insight into orcish psychology right there!
They went in, and Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth. From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
|
|
|
Subject
|
User
|
Time
|
A so called "inconsistency"
|
aruman
|
Oct 11 2012, 12:54pm
|
Your conclusion is what I've always thought myself.
|
CuriousG
|
Oct 11 2012, 4:28pm
|
Thanks...
|
aruman
|
Oct 11 2012, 6:04pm
|
Inconsistency is as inconsistency does
|
squire
|
Oct 11 2012, 6:41pm
|
Inconsistency vs. complexity
|
CuriousG
|
Oct 11 2012, 8:13pm
|
Exactly
|
aruman
|
Oct 12 2012, 1:34am
|
That's not what I would call complexity.
|
sador
|
Oct 12 2012, 12:41pm
|
"No doubt?" Really?
|
aruman
|
Oct 12 2012, 3:33pm
|
Plenty of doubt, when you think about it
|
CuriousG
|
Oct 12 2012, 7:10pm
|
technically, runes versus letters...
|
Elthir
|
Oct 13 2012, 10:24pm
|
Thank you!
|
aruman
|
Oct 14 2012, 4:51pm
|
What reason would Sauron have at that point...
|
mandel
|
Oct 11 2012, 11:56pm
|
Maybe
|
aruman
|
Oct 12 2012, 1:30am
|
From Parma Eldalamberon 17, Saura (Quenya) = foul, vile...
|
Tweezers of Thu
|
Oct 12 2012, 12:49pm
|
So, it's not his real name.
|
Elizabeth
|
Oct 12 2012, 8:47pm
|
By Jove, er, Jupiter, I mean...Zeus!
|
Tweezers of Thu
|
Oct 12 2012, 10:08pm
|
My take...
|
Morthoron
|
Oct 13 2012, 1:45am
|
This...
|
Tweezers of Thu
|
Oct 13 2012, 3:57pm
|
A Dark Lord by any other name...
|
Elthir
|
Oct 13 2012, 10:48pm
|
You might be right, i.e., . . .
|
Tweezers of Thu
|
Oct 15 2012, 1:25pm
|
My take on it as well and what is Aragorn's "real" name anyway?
|
telain
|
Oct 19 2012, 1:19pm
|
S is for Sauron
|
Elthir
|
Oct 19 2012, 6:09pm
|
true, true!
|
telain
|
Oct 20 2012, 11:25am
|
The meaning 'disgusting, foul, vile'...
|
Elthir
|
Oct 13 2012, 10:30pm
|
Thanks for the correction!
|
Tweezers of Thu
|
Oct 13 2012, 10:46pm
|
Another distinction
|
Phibbus
|
Oct 18 2012, 3:47am
|
Why do you assume the MoS was permitted to use the name?
|
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
|
Oct 20 2012, 12:49pm
|
Perhaps there is consistency
|
Plurmo
|
Oct 12 2012, 4:27am
|
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
|
FarFromHome
|
Oct 12 2012, 10:35am
|
It could have been
|
ElendilTheShort
|
Oct 13 2012, 8:36am
|
That would be me...
|
FarFromHome
|
Oct 14 2012, 11:58am
|
Can one be "willing" or "unwilling" when one no longer has a will?
|
squire
|
Oct 14 2012, 1:35pm
|
Good point
|
FarFromHome
|
Oct 14 2012, 8:21pm
|
I'm of the opinion loyalty must be a willing choice
|
ElendilTheShort
|
Oct 15 2012, 6:52am
|
A couple great points here
|
aruman
|
Oct 14 2012, 5:10pm
|
Question
|
aruman
|
Oct 14 2012, 5:19pm
|
Excellent question
|
CuriousG
|
Oct 18 2012, 8:13pm
|
The Difficulty of having a Lord one can't name...
|
Morthoron
|
Oct 19 2012, 3:49am
|
Very nice!
|
sador
|
Oct 21 2012, 8:25am
|
|
|
|