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elostirion74
Rohan
Oct 11 2012, 3:36pm
Views: 4638
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Well: why call something an orc-wight when it refers to something hypothetical which doesn't have anything to do with the actual orcs in the stories? Neither in The Hobbit, LoTR or the published Silmarillion we find anything about orc-wights or orcs that would fit this description. I'm not very interested in speculations about "what might have been", but the stories that actually have been published. I'm aware that Tolkien re-wrote and mused about changing or tweaking some of the concepts or ideas he introduced in his published stories. He also seems to have struggled with several of the criticisms he got against the orcs, ("creatures that are considered irredeemable etc.) It's a long time since I've read anything of Unfinished Tales and the HoME material, but much of what I've read in these works are simply might-have-beens, early concepts, abandoned ideas or Tolkien trying to develop or elaborate on (unexplored) parts of the stories, but failing to either finish them or produce stories which are reasonably self-consistent. This is also why I generally don't think they're a good basis for discussing Tolkien's written works nor an acceptable source for adaptation of films. Much of these books seem more like a basis for exploring how Tolkien worked creatively, ideas he abandonded, how he developed his mythology (as well as LoTR) from its early basis, and projects he had for more individual works within the big tapestry of his mythology. With regard to the individual works, I acknowledge a notable difference these more developed "individual stories" and the drafts Tolkien writes about different topics. The two lays of Beleriands and stories like "Of Tuor's coming to Vinyamar" and "Narn i Hin Húrin", "The mariner's wife" and the story taking place among the Druedain are much more consistent and developed than the series of brief drafts we get in the essays on The Istari and the palantirs and even "The Hunt for the Ring". Artistically they are works in their own right that I can relate to and consider suitable as a basis for discussion, since they are much more fully developed and have a greater sense of internal logic. When it comes to those parts of UT which are not self-consistent stories, I find that Tolkien's letters are as a rule much more detailed and satisfactory. I haven't read a single page of Morgoth's Ring, so for all I know this might be a very different work from the others in the HoME series.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Those with concerns...
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 1:43pm
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personally
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 2:16pm
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Well
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:24pm
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oops
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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But you are arguing for the elevation of CGI details
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 1:22am
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lighting
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 3:15pm
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Lighter tone (SPOILERS)
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 2:46pm
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Yes, i fully believe that ....
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Dlanor da Great
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Oct 4 2012, 9:58pm
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One can only hope so//
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 10:01pm
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Ah but it is a basically negative and cynical thread
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 2:33pm
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Book v film.
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Fardragon
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Oct 4 2012, 2:45pm
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Tolkien did not complete the rewrite of the Hobbit because he realized that it would
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:02pm
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No, he didn't complete the rewrite
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 6:59am
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Tolkien made his own choice not to finish the rewrite of The Hobbit
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:32pm
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Largely comercial
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 3:15pm
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O.K., that poem gave me chills. Thanks Kangi!
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:02pm
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You are welcome.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 11:23pm
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perspective
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 3:16pm
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I don't know about that... book SPOILER
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 3:32pm
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Characterizations in Film 1
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 3:41pm
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actually I have viewed everything
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 4:04pm
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Open minded?
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 6:08pm
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That's true ! We can only judge the trailer in itself !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 4 2012, 6:56pm
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I fully agree with the need for openmindedness
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 4 2012, 11:07pm
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Heh Lacrimae
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tolktolk
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Oct 5 2012, 7:10am
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you speak wisdom.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:37pm
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Dwarves don't realize what they are getting in to
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digibrink
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Oct 4 2012, 3:50pm
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a thousand times yes
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:35pm
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People with this viewpoint should read...
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DwellerInDale
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Oct 4 2012, 4:22pm
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Mods up.//
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Owain
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Oct 4 2012, 3:49pm
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I think that they WOULD have become such generational classics if they had kept the number of films
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 5 2012, 12:21am
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Just a note on The Wizard of Oz
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Sunflower
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Oct 5 2012, 9:25am
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Just a note on Bambi
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 4:08pm
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A further note on Bambi:)
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Sunflower
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Oct 6 2012, 4:29am
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thanks Sunflower
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 12:14pm
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Happy animal stories
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Sunflower
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Oct 7 2012, 6:01pm
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Wind in the Willows
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 7:19pm
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William Horwood wrote a sequal
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 8:54pm
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WOT!
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 10:34pm
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Booooorn Freeeee!
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Phibbus
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Oct 8 2012, 2:31am
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Black Beauty,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 8 2012, 2:49pm
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3D
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Marionette
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Oct 4 2012, 2:41pm
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If teh film ends up looking bad in 2D
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:43pm
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A thread that starts with
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DanielLB
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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I don't agree
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shadowdog
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Oct 4 2012, 3:04pm
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Hobbit vs LoTR
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 4:01pm
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I think PJ is in a no win situation
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Elenorflower
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Oct 4 2012, 4:27pm
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Lighter Tone and Such
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 4 2012, 4:55pm
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I'm worried that this film is for the mainstream adience
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stoutfiles
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Oct 4 2012, 6:52pm
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beating a dead horse
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:32pm
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It feels like Star Wars all over...
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Intergalactic Lawman
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Oct 5 2012, 12:25am
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Too many parallels?
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:37am
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not that I agree with everything he said
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Sinister71
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Oct 5 2012, 1:47am
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They did that in LOTR as well sometimes.
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:53am
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okay..why not just relax and try Not of over-analyize
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Bombadil
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Oct 5 2012, 2:30am
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Because
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 4:38am
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But...
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flowww
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Oct 5 2012, 6:56am
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If you are stopped at the relative beardlessness of the dwarves
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:50pm
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I reckon
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 3:50pm
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What do you mean ? Some people don't do it ? //
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Fàfnir
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Oct 5 2012, 3:55pm
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"growling Khuzdul at folk in the street" :D This is off-topic, but
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:11pm
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Agreed with Bomby
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Ring-Bearer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:10am
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Nonsense
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Beutlin
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Oct 5 2012, 1:15pm
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This film
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 12:13pm
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Mods up!
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Eleniel
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Oct 5 2012, 12:43pm
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atmosphere
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triptrap
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Oct 5 2012, 1:56pm
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In the Spirit of Tolkien....Or not.
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 5 2012, 4:13pm
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Questions
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elostirion74
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Oct 5 2012, 6:50pm
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I loved
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 8:11pm
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to be honest
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Sinister71
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Oct 6 2012, 12:40am
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ok
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 7:55am
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Oh I do enjoy a bit of research.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 6 2012, 9:46am
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 1:11pm
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well, that seems quite a stretch to me
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 2:34pm
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 2:54pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 3:20pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:39pm
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hmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 12:36am
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Barrow wights would be one example to consider to the contrary
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:58am
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You probably know this.
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 7:14am
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I'm not sure I would agree with that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 10:41am
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So
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 11:52am
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*Scratches head*
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:15pm
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Not that clear-cut.
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Tim
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Oct 7 2012, 1:10pm
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Wight =/= Wright
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SirDennisC
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Oct 7 2012, 4:24pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 7 2012, 5:02pm
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etymology
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Magpie
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Oct 7 2012, 5:43pm
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Barrow-wights
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 8:31pm
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I found this, I think its from the letters?
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 6:56pm
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Not from Letters
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 6 2012, 8:05pm
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as I said in my post, I found the quotes,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 9:56pm
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No problem -
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geordie
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Oct 7 2012, 9:10am
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yes sorry for any confusion
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 2:59pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 1:09am
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well since Tolkien was a linguist...
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 3:26pm
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I'm afraid that if you trouble to look beyond internet rubbish like this
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 6:42pm
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we can agree to disagree
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 7:08pm
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Again you fail to understand.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 7:30pm
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And you don't know Tolkien didn't mean Black magic / Sorcerer its all open to interpretation
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:31pm
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Absolutely correct.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 8:39pm
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the point is
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:55pm
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Good grief.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 9:07pm
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Reanimating the Dead
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 9 2012, 12:23am
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Yeah I know
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Sinister71
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Oct 9 2012, 12:43am
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It seems that you have missed them.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 9 2012, 11:34am
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LOL
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 10 2012, 12:59am
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You two can be so mean, lolol
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2012, 3:47am
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That is a type of Necromancy and zombiedom, though. I don't mean to challange
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 4:47am
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It's zombies in particular which don't seem very Tolkien-ish
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Fardragon
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Oct 9 2012, 7:36am
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Yet, for all intents and purposes, I think that most people would still consider
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 11:59pm
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Looking at the evidence, I fail to see what the problem is
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Tim
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Oct 8 2012, 7:51pm
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Who would have thought
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 9 2012, 1:21am
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evidence
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elostirion74
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Oct 10 2012, 3:34pm
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Thank you
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 4:51pm
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Why not call it an Orc-wight
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:04pm
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well...
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:20pm
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I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:27pm
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Orcs or as they were referred to in the Hobbit Goblins
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:32pm
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Have you read Morgoth's Ring?
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:38pm
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were talking common place orcs and Goblins here
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:46pm
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I don't follow.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:54pm
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where in the hobbit or the appendices did he mention them?
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:09pm
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I can't quite believe that you cannot follow the thread of the argument.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:22pm
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no I follow
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:26pm
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No it is not pertaining to the films. If you go back and re-read you will see that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:36pm
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well since I brought this thread up about concerns about the films
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 11:03pm
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Yes the discussion about the possibility
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 11:27pm
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Filling in the blanks
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 12 2012, 2:06am
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I hate to keep giving fodder to non-cannon liberties. I REALLY do! Yet I think
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:59pm
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Well, much as I dislike some of the changes, if Bolg is going to challenge Gandalf, I damn sure hope he is presented as a demon orc
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:53pm
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hmmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 11 2012, 3:36pm
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I tend to agree
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 11 2012, 5:59pm
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long answer
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elostirion74
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Oct 12 2012, 3:59pm
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Well it rather depends on what you find interesting but
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 12 2012, 4:56pm
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Now this is a good argument,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:21pm
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