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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The books aren't about the orcs

stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 10 2012, 5:11pm


Views: 167
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The books aren't about the orcs [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The snake is not a situation. The snake was the incarnation of evil (the Devil himself) which was again a creation of God. Indirectly it was his own fault if you ask me. Why did he create evil? Because without evil there is no good. Where there is light you will also find shadow. Good needs the evil to be good. And the human were created as images of God himself not to serve him obedient. A free will is part of that of course.


The snake was just a snake. It was not the Devil, that is a common misconception from people who have not read Genesis and want the Devil in that role. I'm glad you admit the free will of everything that God creates though, that is important since it is the same in Middle-Earth. Everyone has a choice.


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The orcs (are not in the same boat) were created as slaves, workers, warriors. Because Morgoth couldn't be everywhere at the same time to tell them everything again and again he gave them a bit of intelligence that they could also survive if he is not there. But when he calls them they have to follow.


If I have chickens in a hen house, and I let some of the eggs hatch, they are created as slaves and workers on my farm. Those chickens will grow up to lay eggs for me, and if they don't, I will kill them and eat them. They still have a choice not to do this; their limited intelligence doesn't take away from the fact that they have free will. What they were born and bred to do for me has nothing to do with free will. It's having a choice and making one, which is a trait with every living thing on Earth and Middle-Earth.


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Well, talking of a rebellion isn't the same as starting one.


The fact they disobey orders and talk of leaving is proof enough that there is no permanent mind control and they are not bound to Sauron's will anymore than a chicken in a hen house. It would be difficult for a hen to do anything other than the lifestyle I have set for it.


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And why do the 10.000 orcs in the end of ROTK escape? They could have finish their outnumbered enemies, but they escaped because Sauron was finally defeated. Why do you think the troll commander didn't kill Aragorn. Okay Barad-Dr collapsed but... he could have killed the heir of Gondor. Why didn't the earthquake kill the Forces of Light too? It only kills the forces of Evil after Saurons defeat. Perhaps because Saurons fall is also their doom? It is fantasy so maybe it's the end of all evil?


Well in the movie they mostly all die to a conveniently opened chasm, with the surviving orcs being outnumbered, so you must be talking about the book. In the book it appears that all beasts created by Sauron at Mordor lost their minds when he died and ran away or killed themselves. It is more than likely that Sauron WAS directly controlling them at that particular battle, possibly negating their free will, so in that instance I will agree that the orcs may not have free will in that battle, magic may have been involved. Madness kicked in when he fell and they ran back to the darkness or killed themselves to avoid being captured by men. The orc race did not die though, it just went back into hiding.
Evil never fully dies.








Subject User Time
How we gonna notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" (possibly spoilers) Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 11:49am
    Great post, and well thought out DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Oct 9 2012, 11:58am
        Thanks! Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 12:04pm
            Perhaps stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 9 2012, 12:07pm
                Doesn't he controls their minds? Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 12:10pm
                    I assume he could with the Ring DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Oct 9 2012, 12:12pm
                        To be bred or not be bred... that's the question Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 12:19pm
                        maybe elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Oct 10 2012, 1:59pm
                    They had free will stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 9 2012, 12:23pm
                        That Shagrat episode... Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Oct 9 2012, 1:03pm
                            Yes, but orcs are quite different from the book in the movies. // Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 9 2012, 4:52pm
                                orc personalities Mooseboy018 Send a private message to Mooseboy018 Oct 9 2012, 6:26pm
                            Own personalities YES... following their own goals NO Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 7:19pm
                                You just killed your own theory with some of these orcs stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 12:22pm
                                    Personally I don't see why all the Orcs need to be involved with Sauron to begin with... Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Oct 10 2012, 12:39pm
                                        Sauron and Morgoth created them. Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 2:15pm
                                            But being influenced is different from being entirely animated or ruled by the will of another. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 11 2012, 9:21pm
                                                pardon me if I am wrong Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Oct 11 2012, 9:31pm
                                    I think you missed my point... Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 2:21pm
                                        I agree 100% ! Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
                                            Yes! Because the dark lords are the incarnation of evil itself... Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 2:51pm
                                                That isn't entirely true. Quoth Elrond, "nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so." AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 11 2012, 9:28pm
                                        Why didn't they just say... Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
                                        You're missing the big picture stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 3:01pm
                                            We can see here some of Tolkien's contradictions Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 3:12pm
                                                Quite the riddle! Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Oct 10 2012, 3:17pm
                                            Great Post // Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Oct 10 2012, 3:22pm
                                            TALKING of something isn't the same as really DOING something Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 3:33pm
                                                The books aren't about the orcs stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 5:11pm
                                                From Morgoth's Ring stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 5:54pm
                                                The End of All Evil? No. Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 10 2012, 7:10pm
                                            Except that Sauron is no mere dictator ! Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 3:36pm
                    And is not fear a way to control a mind? Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Oct 9 2012, 12:58pm
    Very clever observations comandantedavid Send a private message to comandantedavid Oct 9 2012, 2:43pm
        On point Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Oct 9 2012, 3:09pm
        Development within the trilogy Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 3:14pm
            Yes, good thougths and I agree... Captain Salt Send a private message to Captain Salt Oct 9 2012, 3:29pm
    good post....but MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Oct 10 2012, 3:49am
    A lot of strong points in what you are saying, except for the Khazad-Dum bit. The Balrog, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 10 2012, 4:42am
    I think... Ereinion Nnharma Send a private message to Ereinion Nnharma Oct 11 2012, 9:04am

 
 
 

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