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stoutfiles
Rohan
Oct 10 2012, 3:01pm
Views: 298
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You're missing the big picture
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Let's compare with another famous story in Genesis. God creates Adam and Eve. God tells them not to eat the apples from tree, and they had all intentions of following those orders, but they do it anyway after being influenced by their situation (snake convinced Eve, Eve convinced Adam). They both had free will. The orcs are in the same boat. It doesn't matter who created them, they have free will. It just so happens that Sauron's goals happen to be what they were created to agree with, so they follow him. They aren't forced to though, at least not when he doesn't have the Ring. There's no evidence in the movie that the orcs are bound to Sauron, rather, there is evidence that they do what they want but have leaders to keep them in line under punishment of death. In the books there is even more evidence that the orcs have free will, and if the movie isn't perfectly clear, one must fall to the books for clarification. Just to be clear, Tolkien addresses this. From Letter 153 - "They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)" Even in Silmarillion, Tolkien writes that orcs who surrender must be granted it, something you wouldn't give a completely evil creature. As for rebellion: "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? - if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." Abandoning Sauron is rebellion. Rebellion: a refusal of obedience or order. They didn't show this in the movie, but it would make no sense to show a "pity for the orcs" scene, it would ruin the flow and be generally disliked by the casual audience. They did show Merry and Pippin almost being killed though by an orc after orders not to do so, which was also rebellion. They are no more controlled by Sauron than a drafted soldier is controlled by his country. Some defect, some disobey orders, but most are completely loyal to the cause. They still have their free will though, just like the orcs.
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Time
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How we gonna notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" (possibly spoilers)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 11:49am
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Great post, and well thought out
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DanielLB
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Oct 9 2012, 11:58am
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Thanks!
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 12:04pm
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Perhaps
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stoutfiles
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Oct 9 2012, 12:07pm
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Doesn't he controls their minds?
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 12:10pm
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I assume he could with the Ring
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DanielLB
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Oct 9 2012, 12:12pm
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To be bred or not be bred... that's the question
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 12:19pm
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maybe
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elevorn
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Oct 10 2012, 1:59pm
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They had free will
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stoutfiles
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Oct 9 2012, 12:23pm
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That Shagrat episode...
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Oct 9 2012, 1:03pm
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Yes, but orcs are quite different from the book in the movies. //
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Fàfnir
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Oct 9 2012, 4:52pm
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orc personalities
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Mooseboy018
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Oct 9 2012, 6:26pm
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Own personalities YES... following their own goals NO
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 7:19pm
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You just killed your own theory with some of these orcs
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 12:22pm
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Personally I don't see why all the Orcs need to be involved with Sauron to begin with...
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 12:39pm
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Sauron and Morgoth created them.
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 2:15pm
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But being influenced is different from being entirely animated or ruled by the will of another.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 9:21pm
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pardon me if I am wrong
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Elenorflower
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Oct 11 2012, 9:31pm
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I think you missed my point...
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 2:21pm
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I agree 100% !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
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Yes! Because the dark lords are the incarnation of evil itself...
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 2:51pm
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That isn't entirely true. Quoth Elrond, "nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so."
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 9:28pm
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Why didn't they just say...
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
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You're missing the big picture
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 3:01pm
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We can see here some of Tolkien's contradictions
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 3:12pm
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Quite the riddle!
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Escapist
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Oct 10 2012, 3:17pm
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Great Post //
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 3:22pm
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TALKING of something isn't the same as really DOING something
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 3:33pm
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The books aren't about the orcs
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 5:11pm
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From Morgoth's Ring
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 5:54pm
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The End of All Evil? No.
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 10 2012, 7:10pm
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Except that Sauron is no mere dictator !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 3:36pm
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And is not fear a way to control a mind?
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Oct 9 2012, 12:58pm
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Very clever observations
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comandantedavid
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Oct 9 2012, 2:43pm
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On point
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Elessar
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Oct 9 2012, 3:09pm
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Development within the trilogy
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 3:14pm
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Yes, good thougths and I agree...
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Captain Salt
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Oct 9 2012, 3:29pm
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good post....but
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MouthofSauron
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Oct 10 2012, 3:49am
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A lot of strong points in what you are saying, except for the Khazad-Dum bit. The Balrog,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2012, 4:42am
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I think...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Oct 11 2012, 9:04am
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