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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
You're missing the big picture

stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 10 2012, 3:01pm


Views: 188
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You're missing the big picture [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's compare with another famous story in Genesis. God creates Adam and Eve. God tells them not to eat the apples from tree, and they had all intentions of following those orders, but they do it anyway after being influenced by their situation (snake convinced Eve, Eve convinced Adam). They both had free will.

The orcs are in the same boat. It doesn't matter who created them, they have free will. It just so happens that Sauron's goals happen to be what they were created to agree with, so they follow him. They aren't forced to though, at least not when he doesn't have the Ring. There's no evidence in the movie that the orcs are bound to Sauron, rather, there is evidence that they do what they want but have leaders to keep them in line under punishment of death. In the books there is even more evidence that the orcs have free will, and if the movie isn't perfectly clear, one must fall to the books for clarification.

Just to be clear, Tolkien addresses this.

From Letter 153 - "They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)"

Even in Silmarillion, Tolkien writes that orcs who surrender must be granted it, something you wouldn't give a completely evil creature.

As for rebellion:

"They would," grunted Gorbag. "Well see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What dyou say? - if we get a chance, you and mell slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where theres good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."

Abandoning Sauron is rebellion. Rebellion: a refusal of obedience or order. They didn't show this in the movie, but it would make no sense to show a "pity for the orcs" scene, it would ruin the flow and be generally disliked by the casual audience. They did show Merry and Pippin almost being killed though by an orc after orders not to do so, which was also rebellion. They are no more controlled by Sauron than a drafted soldier is controlled by his country. Some defect, some disobey orders, but most are completely loyal to the cause. They still have their free will though, just like the orcs.

Subject User Time
How we gonna notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" (possibly spoilers) Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 11:49am
    Great post, and well thought out DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Oct 9 2012, 11:58am
        Thanks! Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 12:04pm
            Perhaps stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 9 2012, 12:07pm
                Doesn't he controls their minds? Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 12:10pm
                    I assume he could with the Ring DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Oct 9 2012, 12:12pm
                        To be bred or not be bred... that's the question Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 12:19pm
                        maybe elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Oct 10 2012, 1:59pm
                    They had free will stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 9 2012, 12:23pm
                        That Shagrat episode... isaac Send a private message to isaac Oct 9 2012, 1:03pm
                            Yes, but orcs are quite different from the book in the movies. // Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 9 2012, 4:52pm
                                orc personalities Mooseboy018 Send a private message to Mooseboy018 Oct 9 2012, 6:26pm
                            Own personalities YES... following their own goals NO Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 7:19pm
                                You just killed your own theory with some of these orcs stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 12:22pm
                                    Personally I don't see why all the Orcs need to be involved with Sauron to begin with... Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Oct 10 2012, 12:39pm
                                        Sauron and Morgoth created them. Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 2:15pm
                                            But being influenced is different from being entirely animated or ruled by the will of another. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 11 2012, 9:21pm
                                                pardon me if I am wrong Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Oct 11 2012, 9:31pm
                                    I think you missed my point... Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 2:21pm
                                        I agree 100% ! Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
                                            Yes! Because the dark lords are the incarnation of evil itself... Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 2:51pm
                                                That isn't entirely true. Quoth Elrond, "nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so." AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 11 2012, 9:28pm
                                        Why didn't they just say... Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
                                        You're missing the big picture stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 3:01pm
                                            We can see here some of Tolkien's contradictions Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 3:12pm
                                                Quite the riddle! Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Oct 10 2012, 3:17pm
                                            Great Post // Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Oct 10 2012, 3:22pm
                                            TALKING of something isn't the same as really DOING something Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 10 2012, 3:33pm
                                                The books aren't about the orcs stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 5:11pm
                                                From Morgoth's Ring stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 10 2012, 5:54pm
                                                The End of All Evil? No. Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 10 2012, 7:10pm
                                            Except that Sauron is no mere dictator ! Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 10 2012, 3:36pm
                    And is not fear a way to control a mind? isaac Send a private message to isaac Oct 9 2012, 12:58pm
    Very clever observations comandantedavid Send a private message to comandantedavid Oct 9 2012, 2:43pm
        On point Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Oct 9 2012, 3:09pm
        Development within the trilogy Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Send a private message to Lieutenant of Dol Guldur Oct 9 2012, 3:14pm
            Yes, good thougths and I agree... Captain Salt Send a private message to Captain Salt Oct 9 2012, 3:29pm
    good post....but MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Oct 10 2012, 3:49am
    A lot of strong points in what you are saying, except for the Khazad-Dum bit. The Balrog, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 10 2012, 4:42am
    I think... Ereinion Nnharma Send a private message to Ereinion Nnharma Oct 11 2012, 9:04am

 
 
 

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