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stoutfiles
Rohan
Oct 10 2012, 12:22pm
Views: 522
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You just killed your own theory with some of these orcs
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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They certainly do have free will in the movies, but you just named a small group of orcs, mostly high ranking ones, and declared that ALL orcs are the same because some of this small group is loyal. No, most of them are like Grishnákh; they follow orders out of fear and/or similar goals, but will do whatever they want if the chance is given to them. A perfectly loyal orc without free will would not kill orcs that Sauron/Saruman wanted alive. What about Shagrat and Gorbag fighting over Frodo's mythril? One wanted it to go to Sauron, but the other wanted to keep it for himself. Is that not free will? Free will: ability to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Clearly Sauron would want the mythril, but one of the orcs didn't care and wanted it for himself. That is free will. If the orcs had no free will, they would never fight amongst themselves, as that would never be Sauron's will. The only reason the movie doesn't show their free will as often as the books is that you only have X minutes to work with, and those minutes aren't best spent trying to sympathize with orcs that may not want to be in this war.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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How we gonna notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" (possibly spoilers)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 11:49am
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Great post, and well thought out
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DanielLB
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Oct 9 2012, 11:58am
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Thanks!
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 12:04pm
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Perhaps
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stoutfiles
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Oct 9 2012, 12:07pm
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Doesn't he controls their minds?
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 12:10pm
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I assume he could with the Ring
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DanielLB
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Oct 9 2012, 12:12pm
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To be bred or not be bred... that's the question
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 12:19pm
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maybe
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elevorn
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Oct 10 2012, 1:59pm
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They had free will
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stoutfiles
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Oct 9 2012, 12:23pm
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That Shagrat episode...
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Oct 9 2012, 1:03pm
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Yes, but orcs are quite different from the book in the movies. //
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Fàfnir
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Oct 9 2012, 4:52pm
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orc personalities
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Mooseboy018
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Oct 9 2012, 6:26pm
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Own personalities YES... following their own goals NO
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 7:19pm
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You just killed your own theory with some of these orcs
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 12:22pm
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Personally I don't see why all the Orcs need to be involved with Sauron to begin with...
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 12:39pm
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Sauron and Morgoth created them.
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 2:15pm
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But being influenced is different from being entirely animated or ruled by the will of another.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 9:21pm
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pardon me if I am wrong
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Elenorflower
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Oct 11 2012, 9:31pm
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I think you missed my point...
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 2:21pm
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I agree 100% !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
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Yes! Because the dark lords are the incarnation of evil itself...
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 2:51pm
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That isn't entirely true. Quoth Elrond, "nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so."
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 9:28pm
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Why didn't they just say...
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
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You're missing the big picture
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 3:01pm
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We can see here some of Tolkien's contradictions
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 3:12pm
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Quite the riddle!
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Escapist
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Oct 10 2012, 3:17pm
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Great Post //
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 3:22pm
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TALKING of something isn't the same as really DOING something
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 10 2012, 3:33pm
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The books aren't about the orcs
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 5:11pm
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From Morgoth's Ring
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stoutfiles
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Oct 10 2012, 5:54pm
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The End of All Evil? No.
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 10 2012, 7:10pm
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Except that Sauron is no mere dictator !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 10 2012, 3:36pm
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And is not fear a way to control a mind?
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Oct 9 2012, 12:58pm
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Very clever observations
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comandantedavid
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Oct 9 2012, 2:43pm
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On point
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Elessar
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Oct 9 2012, 3:09pm
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Development within the trilogy
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Oct 9 2012, 3:14pm
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Yes, good thougths and I agree...
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Captain Salt
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Oct 9 2012, 3:29pm
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good post....but
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MouthofSauron
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Oct 10 2012, 3:49am
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A lot of strong points in what you are saying, except for the Khazad-Dum bit. The Balrog,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2012, 4:42am
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I think...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Oct 11 2012, 9:04am
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