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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Oct 8 2012, 8:31pm
Views: 4637
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And you don't know Tolkien didn't mean Black magic / Sorcerer its all open to interpretation
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Almost all definitions I have read refer to Black Magic and Sorcery where not all of them refer to raising the dead or reanimating corpses, most do however only refer to communicating with the dead to find out about the future But the Barrow wights are not reanimating the dead with the spirit of the corpse which is what some are implying necromancy is. They are evil spirits or demons inhabiting dead unanimated corpses who's spirit is gone or inhabiting someone that is living taking away their will. Due to his inspiration from Hrómundar saga Gripssonar, during the writing of LOTR Tolkien at first foresaw a link between the Wights and the Ringwraiths, initially describing the Black Riders as horsed Wights, but the suggestion that they were the same kind of creatures was dropped in the published work. In the final work there remained a link between them: the wights were now spirits sent by the Witch King. The Barrow-wights themselves are based on a similar creature in Germanic Mythology known in Norse as Draugar (the singular being Draugr). They were said to be evil spirits residing in the bodies of dead heroes and kings and usually (but not universally) unharmed by conventional weapons. In such cases a hero of great strength and bravery. The defeat of a Draugr was not always permanent; they could return to plague the living if certain actions were not performed after the Draugr was vanquished. The usual means of destroying a Draugr was to cut off its head and to burn the body, for only then would the evil spirit be prevented from returning to the body. Another, probably related, creature from Germanic and Slavic folklore was the Mahr (also called an Alp), a vampire-like creature that was said to rise from its barrow after dark to plague the sleeping and drink their blood. The primary way to vanquish them was to open their Barrow to the rays of the Sun, much like the Barrow-wight from Tolkien's mythology. A very similar creature in Japanese mythology is the onryo, as they are undead spirits which dwell in darkness and are seemingly affected by the Sun. The onryo of Japan are deceased women, and have returned to Earth in a desire for vengeance. These spirits can also possess the living, the dead, and the undead.
(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 8 2012, 8:35pm)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Those with concerns...
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 1:43pm
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personally
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 2:16pm
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Well
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:24pm
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oops
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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But you are arguing for the elevation of CGI details
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 1:22am
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lighting
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 3:15pm
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Lighter tone (SPOILERS)
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 2:46pm
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Yes, i fully believe that ....
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Dlanor da Great
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Oct 4 2012, 9:58pm
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One can only hope so//
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 10:01pm
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Ah but it is a basically negative and cynical thread
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 2:33pm
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Book v film.
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Fardragon
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Oct 4 2012, 2:45pm
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Tolkien did not complete the rewrite of the Hobbit because he realized that it would
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:02pm
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No, he didn't complete the rewrite
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 6:59am
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Tolkien made his own choice not to finish the rewrite of The Hobbit
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:32pm
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Largely comercial
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 3:15pm
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O.K., that poem gave me chills. Thanks Kangi!
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:02pm
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You are welcome.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 11:23pm
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perspective
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 3:16pm
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I don't know about that... book SPOILER
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 3:32pm
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Characterizations in Film 1
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 3:41pm
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actually I have viewed everything
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 4:04pm
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Open minded?
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 6:08pm
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That's true ! We can only judge the trailer in itself !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 4 2012, 6:56pm
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I fully agree with the need for openmindedness
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 4 2012, 11:07pm
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Heh Lacrimae
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tolktolk
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Oct 5 2012, 7:10am
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you speak wisdom.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:37pm
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Dwarves don't realize what they are getting in to
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digibrink
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Oct 4 2012, 3:50pm
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a thousand times yes
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:35pm
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People with this viewpoint should read...
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DwellerInDale
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Oct 4 2012, 4:22pm
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Mods up.//
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Owain
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Oct 4 2012, 3:49pm
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I think that they WOULD have become such generational classics if they had kept the number of films
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 5 2012, 12:21am
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Just a note on The Wizard of Oz
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Sunflower
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Oct 5 2012, 9:25am
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Just a note on Bambi
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 4:08pm
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A further note on Bambi:)
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Sunflower
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Oct 6 2012, 4:29am
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thanks Sunflower
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 12:14pm
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Happy animal stories
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Sunflower
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Oct 7 2012, 6:01pm
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Wind in the Willows
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 7:19pm
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William Horwood wrote a sequal
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 8:54pm
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WOT!
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 10:34pm
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Booooorn Freeeee!
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Phibbus
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Oct 8 2012, 2:31am
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Black Beauty,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 8 2012, 2:49pm
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3D
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Marionette
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Oct 4 2012, 2:41pm
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If teh film ends up looking bad in 2D
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:43pm
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A thread that starts with
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DanielLB
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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I don't agree
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shadowdog
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Oct 4 2012, 3:04pm
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Hobbit vs LoTR
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 4:01pm
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I think PJ is in a no win situation
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Elenorflower
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Oct 4 2012, 4:27pm
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Lighter Tone and Such
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 4 2012, 4:55pm
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I'm worried that this film is for the mainstream adience
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stoutfiles
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Oct 4 2012, 6:52pm
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beating a dead horse
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:32pm
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It feels like Star Wars all over...
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Intergalactic Lawman
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Oct 5 2012, 12:25am
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Too many parallels?
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:37am
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not that I agree with everything he said
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Sinister71
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Oct 5 2012, 1:47am
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They did that in LOTR as well sometimes.
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:53am
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okay..why not just relax and try Not of over-analyize
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Bombadil
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Oct 5 2012, 2:30am
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Because
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 4:38am
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But...
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flowww
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Oct 5 2012, 6:56am
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If you are stopped at the relative beardlessness of the dwarves
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:50pm
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I reckon
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 3:50pm
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What do you mean ? Some people don't do it ? //
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Fàfnir
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Oct 5 2012, 3:55pm
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"growling Khuzdul at folk in the street" :D This is off-topic, but
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:11pm
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Agreed with Bomby
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Ring-Bearer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:10am
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Nonsense
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Beutlin
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Oct 5 2012, 1:15pm
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This film
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 12:13pm
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Mods up!
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Eleniel
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Oct 5 2012, 12:43pm
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atmosphere
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triptrap
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Oct 5 2012, 1:56pm
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In the Spirit of Tolkien....Or not.
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 5 2012, 4:13pm
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Questions
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elostirion74
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Oct 5 2012, 6:50pm
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I loved
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 8:11pm
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to be honest
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Sinister71
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Oct 6 2012, 12:40am
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ok
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 7:55am
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Oh I do enjoy a bit of research.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 6 2012, 9:46am
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 1:11pm
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well, that seems quite a stretch to me
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 2:34pm
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 2:54pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 3:20pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:39pm
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hmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 12:36am
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Barrow wights would be one example to consider to the contrary
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:58am
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You probably know this.
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 7:14am
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I'm not sure I would agree with that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 10:41am
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So
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 11:52am
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*Scratches head*
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:15pm
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Not that clear-cut.
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Tim
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Oct 7 2012, 1:10pm
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Wight =/= Wright
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SirDennisC
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Oct 7 2012, 4:24pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 7 2012, 5:02pm
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etymology
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Magpie
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Oct 7 2012, 5:43pm
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Barrow-wights
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 8:31pm
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I found this, I think its from the letters?
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 6:56pm
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Not from Letters
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 6 2012, 8:05pm
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as I said in my post, I found the quotes,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 9:56pm
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No problem -
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geordie
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Oct 7 2012, 9:10am
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yes sorry for any confusion
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 2:59pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 1:09am
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well since Tolkien was a linguist...
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 3:26pm
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I'm afraid that if you trouble to look beyond internet rubbish like this
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 6:42pm
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we can agree to disagree
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 7:08pm
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Again you fail to understand.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 7:30pm
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And you don't know Tolkien didn't mean Black magic / Sorcerer its all open to interpretation
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:31pm
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Absolutely correct.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 8:39pm
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the point is
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:55pm
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Good grief.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 9:07pm
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Reanimating the Dead
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 9 2012, 12:23am
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Yeah I know
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Sinister71
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Oct 9 2012, 12:43am
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It seems that you have missed them.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 9 2012, 11:34am
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LOL
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 10 2012, 12:59am
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You two can be so mean, lolol
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2012, 3:47am
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That is a type of Necromancy and zombiedom, though. I don't mean to challange
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 4:47am
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It's zombies in particular which don't seem very Tolkien-ish
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Fardragon
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Oct 9 2012, 7:36am
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Yet, for all intents and purposes, I think that most people would still consider
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 11:59pm
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Looking at the evidence, I fail to see what the problem is
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Tim
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Oct 8 2012, 7:51pm
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Who would have thought
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 9 2012, 1:21am
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evidence
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elostirion74
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Oct 10 2012, 3:34pm
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Thank you
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 4:51pm
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Why not call it an Orc-wight
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:04pm
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well...
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:20pm
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I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:27pm
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Orcs or as they were referred to in the Hobbit Goblins
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:32pm
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Have you read Morgoth's Ring?
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:38pm
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were talking common place orcs and Goblins here
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:46pm
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I don't follow.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:54pm
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where in the hobbit or the appendices did he mention them?
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:09pm
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I can't quite believe that you cannot follow the thread of the argument.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:22pm
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no I follow
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:26pm
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No it is not pertaining to the films. If you go back and re-read you will see that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:36pm
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well since I brought this thread up about concerns about the films
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 11:03pm
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Yes the discussion about the possibility
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 11:27pm
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Filling in the blanks
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 12 2012, 2:06am
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I hate to keep giving fodder to non-cannon liberties. I REALLY do! Yet I think
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:59pm
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Well, much as I dislike some of the changes, if Bolg is going to challenge Gandalf, I damn sure hope he is presented as a demon orc
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:53pm
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hmmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 11 2012, 3:36pm
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I tend to agree
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 11 2012, 5:59pm
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long answer
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elostirion74
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Oct 12 2012, 3:59pm
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Well it rather depends on what you find interesting but
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 12 2012, 4:56pm
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Now this is a good argument,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:21pm
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