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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Oct 8 2012, 3:26pm
Views: 4583
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well since Tolkien was a linguist...
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I would assume he found these instead of bringing back the dead to life... Necromancy is derived from the Greek νεκρομαντία, nekromantía, and is associated with black magic However, since the Renaissance, necromancy has come to be associated more broadly with black magic and demon-summoning in general, sometimes losing its earlier, more specialized meaning. By popular etymology, nekromantia became nigromancy "black arts" Dictionary definition: 1. a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art. (notice it says communicating, not raising or creating Zombies) 2. magic in general, especially that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration. Taken directly from an online occult magazine http://www.rendingtheveil.com/necromancy-dark-art/ "Amongst all the various names for magical practices, the word necromancy is probably the most foreboding and sinister. No doubt that such a practice was diabolical and associated with the blackest forms of magic. Popular folklore and belief defines necromancy as divination performed through the conjuration and manipulation of the spirits of the dead. The most outrageous form was the exhumation and reanimation of a corpse, which many often think of today when defining this term." while it does claim reanimating a corpse it also calls it outrageous probably meaning most extreme and what people think of today, not ancient which is what Tolkien researched "The origins of necromancy occurred in the far distant past, long before the time of antiquity. It was a system of divination that was ultimately derived from the pious observances paid to the dead at their tombs. It isn’t hard to imagine a person going to the grave site of some great kinsman and in addition to giving offerings and oblations, to ask for assistance with some family crisis. So the practice of necromancy probably stemmed from a natural desire to seek help from one’s departed ancestors. Thoughts about the value of advice or prophecy given by the dead varied considerably in antiquity. Some believed that the dead had resources beyond the ken of the living; others (like Homer) believed that the dead knew no more about things than when alive. Necromancy may have been derived innocently enough from funeral observations, but it’s also likely that it had a separate shamanic origin." And since Tolkien did his research in ancient languages, not modern ones. Almost every source I found referring to ancient necromancy said Black magic, not all said anything about raising the dead other than communicating to find out the future.... I would assume he is referring to the older definitions of the word not what modern times has come to accept as what the word involves... I know it fits with modern audiences but if it were the "done in the spirit of Tolkien" it would i am sure would use the oldest definition of the word instead of something more modern. On a personal note I think the idea of Zombies and undead other than spirits is tasteless and tacky in comparison to what Tolkien wrote. Think what you want but I prefer to think when Tolkien created the light or good wizards Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman...etc. he also created Black wizards or sorcerers to counter their goodness with evil not necessarily raising the dead. I think that was probably the furthest thing from Tolkien's mind.
(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 8 2012, 3:28pm)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Those with concerns...
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 1:43pm
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personally
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 2:16pm
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Well
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:24pm
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oops
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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But you are arguing for the elevation of CGI details
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 1:22am
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lighting
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 3:15pm
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Lighter tone (SPOILERS)
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 2:46pm
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Yes, i fully believe that ....
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Dlanor da Great
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Oct 4 2012, 9:58pm
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One can only hope so//
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 10:01pm
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Ah but it is a basically negative and cynical thread
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 2:33pm
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Book v film.
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Fardragon
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Oct 4 2012, 2:45pm
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Tolkien did not complete the rewrite of the Hobbit because he realized that it would
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:02pm
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No, he didn't complete the rewrite
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 6:59am
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Tolkien made his own choice not to finish the rewrite of The Hobbit
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:32pm
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Largely comercial
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 3:15pm
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O.K., that poem gave me chills. Thanks Kangi!
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:02pm
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You are welcome.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 11:23pm
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perspective
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 3:16pm
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I don't know about that... book SPOILER
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 3:32pm
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Characterizations in Film 1
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 3:41pm
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actually I have viewed everything
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 4:04pm
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Open minded?
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 6:08pm
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That's true ! We can only judge the trailer in itself !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 4 2012, 6:56pm
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I fully agree with the need for openmindedness
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 4 2012, 11:07pm
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Heh Lacrimae
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tolktolk
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Oct 5 2012, 7:10am
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you speak wisdom.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:37pm
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Dwarves don't realize what they are getting in to
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digibrink
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Oct 4 2012, 3:50pm
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a thousand times yes
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:35pm
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People with this viewpoint should read...
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DwellerInDale
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Oct 4 2012, 4:22pm
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Mods up.//
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Owain
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Oct 4 2012, 3:49pm
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I think that they WOULD have become such generational classics if they had kept the number of films
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 5 2012, 12:21am
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Just a note on The Wizard of Oz
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Sunflower
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Oct 5 2012, 9:25am
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Just a note on Bambi
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 4:08pm
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A further note on Bambi:)
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Sunflower
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Oct 6 2012, 4:29am
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thanks Sunflower
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 12:14pm
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Happy animal stories
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Sunflower
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Oct 7 2012, 6:01pm
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Wind in the Willows
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 7:19pm
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William Horwood wrote a sequal
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 8:54pm
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WOT!
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 10:34pm
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Booooorn Freeeee!
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Phibbus
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Oct 8 2012, 2:31am
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Black Beauty,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 8 2012, 2:49pm
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3D
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Marionette
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Oct 4 2012, 2:41pm
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If teh film ends up looking bad in 2D
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:43pm
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A thread that starts with
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DanielLB
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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I don't agree
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shadowdog
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Oct 4 2012, 3:04pm
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Hobbit vs LoTR
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 4:01pm
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I think PJ is in a no win situation
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Elenorflower
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Oct 4 2012, 4:27pm
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Lighter Tone and Such
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 4 2012, 4:55pm
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I'm worried that this film is for the mainstream adience
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stoutfiles
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Oct 4 2012, 6:52pm
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beating a dead horse
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:32pm
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It feels like Star Wars all over...
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Intergalactic Lawman
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Oct 5 2012, 12:25am
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Too many parallels?
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:37am
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not that I agree with everything he said
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Sinister71
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Oct 5 2012, 1:47am
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They did that in LOTR as well sometimes.
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:53am
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okay..why not just relax and try Not of over-analyize
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Bombadil
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Oct 5 2012, 2:30am
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Because
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 4:38am
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But...
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flowww
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Oct 5 2012, 6:56am
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If you are stopped at the relative beardlessness of the dwarves
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:50pm
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I reckon
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 3:50pm
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What do you mean ? Some people don't do it ? //
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Fàfnir
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Oct 5 2012, 3:55pm
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"growling Khuzdul at folk in the street" :D This is off-topic, but
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:11pm
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Agreed with Bomby
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Ring-Bearer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:10am
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Nonsense
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Beutlin
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Oct 5 2012, 1:15pm
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This film
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 12:13pm
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Mods up!
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Eleniel
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Oct 5 2012, 12:43pm
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atmosphere
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triptrap
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Oct 5 2012, 1:56pm
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In the Spirit of Tolkien....Or not.
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 5 2012, 4:13pm
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Questions
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elostirion74
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Oct 5 2012, 6:50pm
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I loved
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 8:11pm
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to be honest
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Sinister71
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Oct 6 2012, 12:40am
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ok
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 7:55am
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Oh I do enjoy a bit of research.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 6 2012, 9:46am
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 1:11pm
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well, that seems quite a stretch to me
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 2:34pm
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 2:54pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 3:20pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:39pm
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hmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 12:36am
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Barrow wights would be one example to consider to the contrary
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:58am
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You probably know this.
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 7:14am
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I'm not sure I would agree with that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 10:41am
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So
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 11:52am
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*Scratches head*
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:15pm
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Not that clear-cut.
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Tim
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Oct 7 2012, 1:10pm
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Wight =/= Wright
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SirDennisC
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Oct 7 2012, 4:24pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 7 2012, 5:02pm
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etymology
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Magpie
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Oct 7 2012, 5:43pm
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Barrow-wights
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 8:31pm
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I found this, I think its from the letters?
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 6:56pm
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Not from Letters
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 6 2012, 8:05pm
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as I said in my post, I found the quotes,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 9:56pm
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No problem -
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geordie
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Oct 7 2012, 9:10am
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yes sorry for any confusion
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 2:59pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 1:09am
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well since Tolkien was a linguist...
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 3:26pm
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I'm afraid that if you trouble to look beyond internet rubbish like this
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 6:42pm
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we can agree to disagree
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 7:08pm
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Again you fail to understand.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 7:30pm
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And you don't know Tolkien didn't mean Black magic / Sorcerer its all open to interpretation
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:31pm
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Absolutely correct.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 8:39pm
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the point is
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:55pm
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Good grief.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 9:07pm
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Reanimating the Dead
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 9 2012, 12:23am
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Yeah I know
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Sinister71
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Oct 9 2012, 12:43am
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It seems that you have missed them.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 9 2012, 11:34am
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LOL
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 10 2012, 12:59am
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You two can be so mean, lolol
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2012, 3:47am
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That is a type of Necromancy and zombiedom, though. I don't mean to challange
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 4:47am
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It's zombies in particular which don't seem very Tolkien-ish
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Fardragon
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Oct 9 2012, 7:36am
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Yet, for all intents and purposes, I think that most people would still consider
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 11:59pm
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Looking at the evidence, I fail to see what the problem is
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Tim
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Oct 8 2012, 7:51pm
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Who would have thought
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 9 2012, 1:21am
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evidence
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elostirion74
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Oct 10 2012, 3:34pm
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Thank you
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 4:51pm
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Why not call it an Orc-wight
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:04pm
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well...
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:20pm
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I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:27pm
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Orcs or as they were referred to in the Hobbit Goblins
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:32pm
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Have you read Morgoth's Ring?
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:38pm
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were talking common place orcs and Goblins here
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:46pm
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I don't follow.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:54pm
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where in the hobbit or the appendices did he mention them?
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:09pm
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I can't quite believe that you cannot follow the thread of the argument.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:22pm
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no I follow
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:26pm
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No it is not pertaining to the films. If you go back and re-read you will see that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:36pm
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well since I brought this thread up about concerns about the films
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 11:03pm
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Yes the discussion about the possibility
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 11:27pm
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Filling in the blanks
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 12 2012, 2:06am
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I hate to keep giving fodder to non-cannon liberties. I REALLY do! Yet I think
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:59pm
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Well, much as I dislike some of the changes, if Bolg is going to challenge Gandalf, I damn sure hope he is presented as a demon orc
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:53pm
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hmmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 11 2012, 3:36pm
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I tend to agree
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 11 2012, 5:59pm
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long answer
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elostirion74
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Oct 12 2012, 3:59pm
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Well it rather depends on what you find interesting but
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 12 2012, 4:56pm
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Now this is a good argument,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:21pm
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