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Sunflower
Valinor
Oct 5 2012, 9:25am
Views: 4745
Shortcut
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Just a note on The Wizard of Oz
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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it was, at the time of its release in 1939, both a critical and commercial flop. Too many people had read the books and starred, as children, in theatrical productions of Oz in the 39 yrs before the film came out, for them to welcome this lavish Hollywood production with open arms. (in this aspect, intestingly, the parallels between TWOZ and TH are intersting--75 yrs for a film adaptation and lots of fans starring in shcool productions.) They fretted about the parts of Baum's novel that had been removed, often at the expense of story (for example, the Emerald City sequence was targeted for special ire--instead of a biting political allegory, with such things as the green glasses for Oz's denizens and the Wizard changing appearances for his individual audience with each of the four being altered to become a silly musical seqeunce and a uniform fear-inducing Wizard). In the minds of most adults who saw the film, all its brilliant technical innovations came vastly at the expense of story. Victor Fleming had taken a complex, naunced, Lewis Carroll-like narrative and turned it into a juvenile Hollywood muscial (yes, the adult fans took Oz as seriously as we take Middle-earth.) Yes, the film did get an Oscar nomination for BP (back when it was 10 films) but that was mainly due to the Technical Branch votes, and Judy Garland got a special Oscar, and the Wicked Witch was praised, but the vast majority of rank-and-file critics and adult audience were less than enthused and box office was low. The film was shelved, and not until the mid-1950's when a new generation discovered it on TV did it finally begin to gain critical respect, and those same children who had loved it in the theater were now the ones writing the critical reviews. the fact that the 1950's were also the dawn of the Golden Age of the Hollywood Musical, with such artists as Rogers and Hammerstein bringing respect to the art form at a time when Red-baiting was hurting Hollywood's artistic quality, didn't hurt either. In this atmosphere, a proper appreciation of Oz's merits as a *stand-alone film*, as opposed to the Hollywood adaptation of a much-loved novel, was much easier and necessary to making the film the classic it remains. you might be interested to note that such classics as Disney's Snow White and Pinocchio also started out as commerical flops. While critically praised, and given a rapturous Hollywood premierie, the film was pulled from theaters after 2 weeks b/c it was too controversial--it was scaring kids so much that ushers were complaining about having to clean up seats where litle kids had wet their pants from fear (the scene where Snow White runs through the forest from the Huntsman being a particularily difficult scene for kids.) As for Pinoke, even adult audiences found it just too dark and depressing. (Even today, Pinocchio is a masterpiece...it i my favorite of all the Disney films, followed by Fantasia, and BATB.) Like OZ and SW, it had to wait another generation to be fully accepted. Just a note for adult fans of today's franchises...
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Oct 5 2012, 9:30am)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Those with concerns...
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 1:43pm
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personally
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 2:16pm
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Well
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:24pm
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oops
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elevorn
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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But you are arguing for the elevation of CGI details
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 1:22am
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lighting
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 3:15pm
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Lighter tone (SPOILERS)
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 2:46pm
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Yes, i fully believe that ....
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Dlanor da Great
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Oct 4 2012, 9:58pm
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One can only hope so//
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 10:01pm
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Ah but it is a basically negative and cynical thread
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 2:33pm
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Book v film.
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Fardragon
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Oct 4 2012, 2:45pm
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Tolkien did not complete the rewrite of the Hobbit because he realized that it would
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:02pm
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No, he didn't complete the rewrite
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 6:59am
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Tolkien made his own choice not to finish the rewrite of The Hobbit
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:32pm
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Largely comercial
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Fardragon
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Oct 5 2012, 3:15pm
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O.K., that poem gave me chills. Thanks Kangi!
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:02pm
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You are welcome.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 11:23pm
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perspective
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 3:16pm
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I don't know about that... book SPOILER
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comandantedavid
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Oct 4 2012, 3:32pm
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Characterizations in Film 1
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 3:41pm
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actually I have viewed everything
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Sinister71
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Oct 4 2012, 4:04pm
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Open minded?
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 4 2012, 6:08pm
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That's true ! We can only judge the trailer in itself !
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Fàfnir
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Oct 4 2012, 6:56pm
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I fully agree with the need for openmindedness
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 4 2012, 11:07pm
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Heh Lacrimae
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tolktolk
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Oct 5 2012, 7:10am
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you speak wisdom.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 4 2012, 4:37pm
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Dwarves don't realize what they are getting in to
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digibrink
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Oct 4 2012, 3:50pm
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a thousand times yes
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:35pm
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People with this viewpoint should read...
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DwellerInDale
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Oct 4 2012, 4:22pm
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Mods up.//
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Owain
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Oct 4 2012, 3:49pm
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I think that they WOULD have become such generational classics if they had kept the number of films
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 5 2012, 12:21am
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Just a note on The Wizard of Oz
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Sunflower
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Oct 5 2012, 9:25am
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Just a note on Bambi
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 4:08pm
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A further note on Bambi:)
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Sunflower
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Oct 6 2012, 4:29am
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thanks Sunflower
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 12:14pm
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Happy animal stories
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Sunflower
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Oct 7 2012, 6:01pm
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Wind in the Willows
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 7:19pm
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William Horwood wrote a sequal
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 8:54pm
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WOT!
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 10:34pm
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Booooorn Freeeee!
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Phibbus
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Oct 8 2012, 2:31am
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Black Beauty,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 8 2012, 2:49pm
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3D
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Marionette
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Oct 4 2012, 2:41pm
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If teh film ends up looking bad in 2D
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 4 2012, 2:43pm
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A thread that starts with
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DanielLB
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Oct 4 2012, 3:03pm
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I don't agree
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shadowdog
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Oct 4 2012, 3:04pm
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Hobbit vs LoTR
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elostirion74
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Oct 4 2012, 4:01pm
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I think PJ is in a no win situation
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Elenorflower
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Oct 4 2012, 4:27pm
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Lighter Tone and Such
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 4 2012, 4:55pm
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I'm worried that this film is for the mainstream adience
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stoutfiles
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Oct 4 2012, 6:52pm
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beating a dead horse
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 4 2012, 7:32pm
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It feels like Star Wars all over...
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Intergalactic Lawman
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Oct 5 2012, 12:25am
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Too many parallels?
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:37am
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not that I agree with everything he said
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Sinister71
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Oct 5 2012, 1:47am
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They did that in LOTR as well sometimes.
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Estel78
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Oct 5 2012, 1:53am
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okay..why not just relax and try Not of over-analyize
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Bombadil
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Oct 5 2012, 2:30am
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Because
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 5 2012, 4:38am
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But...
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flowww
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Oct 5 2012, 6:56am
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If you are stopped at the relative beardlessness of the dwarves
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 5 2012, 1:50pm
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I reckon
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 3:50pm
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What do you mean ? Some people don't do it ? //
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Fàfnir
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Oct 5 2012, 3:55pm
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"growling Khuzdul at folk in the street" :D This is off-topic, but
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Ethel Duath
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Oct 5 2012, 10:11pm
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Agreed with Bomby
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Ring-Bearer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:10am
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Nonsense
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Beutlin
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Oct 5 2012, 1:15pm
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This film
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 12:13pm
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Mods up!
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Eleniel
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Oct 5 2012, 12:43pm
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atmosphere
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triptrap
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Oct 5 2012, 1:56pm
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In the Spirit of Tolkien....Or not.
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 5 2012, 4:13pm
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Questions
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elostirion74
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Oct 5 2012, 6:50pm
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I loved
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Elenorflower
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Oct 5 2012, 8:11pm
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to be honest
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Sinister71
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Oct 6 2012, 12:40am
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ok
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 7:55am
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Oh I do enjoy a bit of research.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 6 2012, 9:46am
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 1:11pm
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well, that seems quite a stretch to me
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 2:34pm
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Canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 2:54pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 6 2012, 3:20pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 6 2012, 3:39pm
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hmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 12:36am
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Barrow wights would be one example to consider to the contrary
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:58am
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You probably know this.
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 7:14am
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I'm not sure I would agree with that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 10:41am
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So
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Fardragon
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Oct 7 2012, 11:52am
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*Scratches head*
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 7 2012, 12:15pm
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Not that clear-cut.
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Tim
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Oct 7 2012, 1:10pm
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Wight =/= Wright
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SirDennisC
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Oct 7 2012, 4:24pm
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canon
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 7 2012, 5:02pm
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etymology
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Magpie
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Oct 7 2012, 5:43pm
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Barrow-wights
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 8:31pm
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I found this, I think its from the letters?
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 6:56pm
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Not from Letters
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 6 2012, 8:05pm
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as I said in my post, I found the quotes,
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Elenorflower
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Oct 6 2012, 9:56pm
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No problem -
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geordie
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Oct 7 2012, 9:10am
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yes sorry for any confusion
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Elenorflower
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Oct 7 2012, 2:59pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Oct 7 2012, 1:09am
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well since Tolkien was a linguist...
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 3:26pm
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I'm afraid that if you trouble to look beyond internet rubbish like this
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 6:42pm
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we can agree to disagree
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 7:08pm
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Again you fail to understand.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 7:30pm
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And you don't know Tolkien didn't mean Black magic / Sorcerer its all open to interpretation
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:31pm
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Absolutely correct.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 8:39pm
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the point is
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Sinister71
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Oct 8 2012, 8:55pm
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Good grief.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 8 2012, 9:07pm
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Reanimating the Dead
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 9 2012, 12:23am
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Yeah I know
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Sinister71
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Oct 9 2012, 12:43am
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It seems that you have missed them.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 9 2012, 11:34am
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LOL
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 10 2012, 12:59am
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You two can be so mean, lolol
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2012, 3:47am
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That is a type of Necromancy and zombiedom, though. I don't mean to challange
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 4:47am
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It's zombies in particular which don't seem very Tolkien-ish
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Fardragon
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Oct 9 2012, 7:36am
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Yet, for all intents and purposes, I think that most people would still consider
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2012, 11:59pm
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Looking at the evidence, I fail to see what the problem is
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Tim
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Oct 8 2012, 7:51pm
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Who would have thought
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 9 2012, 1:21am
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evidence
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elostirion74
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Oct 10 2012, 3:34pm
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Thank you
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 4:51pm
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Why not call it an Orc-wight
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:04pm
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well...
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:20pm
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I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:27pm
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Orcs or as they were referred to in the Hobbit Goblins
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:32pm
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Have you read Morgoth's Ring?
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:38pm
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were talking common place orcs and Goblins here
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 9:46pm
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I don't follow.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 9:54pm
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where in the hobbit or the appendices did he mention them?
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:09pm
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I can't quite believe that you cannot follow the thread of the argument.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:22pm
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no I follow
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 10:26pm
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No it is not pertaining to the films. If you go back and re-read you will see that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 10:36pm
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well since I brought this thread up about concerns about the films
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Sinister71
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Oct 10 2012, 11:03pm
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Yes the discussion about the possibility
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 10 2012, 11:27pm
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Filling in the blanks
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Black Breathalizer
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Oct 12 2012, 2:06am
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I hate to keep giving fodder to non-cannon liberties. I REALLY do! Yet I think
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:59pm
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Well, much as I dislike some of the changes, if Bolg is going to challenge Gandalf, I damn sure hope he is presented as a demon orc
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:53pm
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hmmm
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elostirion74
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Oct 11 2012, 3:36pm
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I tend to agree
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 11 2012, 5:59pm
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long answer
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elostirion74
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Oct 12 2012, 3:59pm
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Well it rather depends on what you find interesting but
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 12 2012, 4:56pm
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Now this is a good argument,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2012, 8:21pm
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