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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Oct 4 2012, 8:30am
Views: 1241
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And in this case, the same way is pretty much just as the books portray him. I think you are right to say you and I are in strong agreement there. The novels don't give the notion that he is some unhinderable, badass who can win all of the quests on his own, but they do portray him as a Power, within the confines of the Powers still visibly active in Middle Earth in The Third Age. He is portrayed as a being who is, even in his limited manlike form, mightier than a mortal, though that might was often hidden. He is portrayed as a formidable force to be reckoned with, even against daunting odds and Dark Powers. I think that lay viewers of the film should see Gandalf in much the same way that the characters around him do. Initially, as just a mysterious old man with a reputation for adventure and uncanny cleverness and talents. Then, whether to entertain or to make a point, he performs some minor marvel (darkening a room, for example, or turning smoke rings into a flock of coloured smoke birds) that validates that reputation for the uncanny talents and cleverness. Later, in a pinch, he performs some reasonably marvellous feat which none of the rest of you (normal audience members and his companions alike) could have managed, and which you all know you couldn't have managed, and everyone comes to the recognition that he is not just a clever and erriely talented performance artist, he is indeed supernaturally powerful in a significant way. The notion solidifies that everyone is generally much safer with him than without him, and that, while he certainly cannot do everything (despite his amazing and, literally, thunderously dazzling escape from the goblins {which killed several of them} and subsequent dissapearance, he did not manage to keep Bilbo and the Dwarves from being captured, and while he later unleashed a torrent of confusion and pain upon the goblins, he didn't turn them all into ice sculptures with a wave and a whisper), he can do a lot more than most to break himself and those in his care out of a tight corner (indeed, the line in The Hobbit after that event says almost EXACTLY those words). People are correct to say that Gandalf should not appear omnipotent or even virtually omnipotent. Yet it is also important that, in the grand scheme, he appear at first, a little mysterious and possessed of prodigious talents, and later that he appear powerful. Once characters in the novel see him in action, there is never any doubt that he is a powerful being. Whether it is Frodo and Sam, or Thorin, Aragorn and Faramir, all are aware that Gandalf wields great power. Thorin, Aragorn and Faramir are also well aware that he is a greater power than they. From the beginning, Thorin speaks of the quest for Erebor as one which might claim all of their lives, "with the exception of our friend and counsellor, the ingenious Wizard Gandalf." The dwarves are dismayed when Gandalf parts with them at Mirkwood's edge, and while part of that dismay was at the loss of his cleverness and knowledge as a guide, much of it certainly was due to the recognition that they were loosing the most potent and resourceful member of their company, and the one most likely and most able to pull their asses out of a fire. Aragorn and Faramir also comment on the power of Gandalf, and Rivendell is full of tales of his wondrous feats. If the spirit of the novels is to be maintained in portraying him, then the dynamic cannot be played in the way Fandragon and a few others have seemed to suggest, where, as in an Elder Scrolls or Fable game, a high level warrior is different but still roughly equal in power to a high level mage. Thorin, Aragorn and Faramir are mighty and noble warriors, but Gandalf is a Power, and he is mightier than they. Peter himself understands this, even if he did not always adequately convey it. In the 365 day calender for the Fellowship film, there is a line from Saruman which was evidently in the original script, but was edited out of the film, wherein he says, after Gandalf falls facing The Balrog, "The Gray Messenger is gone. His ragtag fellowship is leaderless. There is no one to protect them now." Celeborn's sentiment mirrors The White Wizard's assesment. "Without Gandalf hope is lost." Galadriel knows that there is still some hope, however diminished, but both Celeborn and Saruman recognize that no remaining member of The Fellowship is the equal of The Gray Pilgrim. If, (and I say IF, as I will not know wheter this is how the scene will unfold until I either see it, or read a more detailed report from someone with an inside track), Bolg is, on his own and as an orc, portrayed as anything like a match for Gandalf, or a source of fear for Gandalf, it will diminish the Wizard, and it will be a troubling misrepresentation. When Gandalf is pressed in the novels it is always and invariably either by overwhelming odds (scores to hundreds of more common antagonists/monsters like wargs and orcs) OR by very highly ranked and particularly potent Dark Powers. I recall showing Fellowship to a lay friend, and when The Balrog showed up, and Gandalf turned to face him, the friend asked, disdainfully, "what is HE gonna do?" And as disgusted as I was, I understood how he came to his conclusion. Gandalf had displayed feats of power in the movie. . . but the only time he effectively did so was when he was overwhelming Bilbo. In the fights with Saruman, he did more than virtually anyone else would have been able to manage, but he lost in both instances AND, in the instance with Saruman's storm, he really isn't seen to have effected its course at all. He never performs an astounding feat of magic like Arwen seems to do. We know Arwen is almost certainly not as powerful as Gandalf. Hell, we know the horse waves and their riders were Gandalf's doing, his own enhancement on Elrond's spell. But a lay person comes away understandably thinking that maybe The Fellowship might have done better to take Arwen instead of the Wizard . By removing both Gandalf's lightning and fire wielding confrontation with The Nazgul, and the Wizard's fiery enchantment against the wargs, Peter effectively removed the main scenes in Fellowship where Gandalf both wields magic AND either routes or at least holds his own against significant foes. From a narrative standpoint they might not seem like enormous oversights, but as nothing replaces them, their absence leaves him looking much less potent than the novel portrays him. I certainly hope the Hobbit does not take the same path. If Bolg is presented as, more or less, a yesteryear precursor version of Lurtz and Ugluk (albiet with a longer and more gruesome history), then he should not be put forth as a potential match for Gadalf. I think it is fair to say that you and I (and Mithrandir, and the others in our camp) are not interested in having Gandalf be turned into Zeus or even Thor. But we do want him to have all the powers and abilities that he wields in the books, and to have the scenes in which he displays them remain a part of the story. I think you and I are pretty much on the same page as far as Gandalf is concerned and how we want PJ to portray him as an Istari in the movies. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 1:06am
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My take
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Phibbus
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Oct 2 2012, 1:22am
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I think that's what is happening
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 1:34am
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Great Goblin and Boldogs
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:24am
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You may be right.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 1:48am
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maybe I'm in the minority here but...
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Sinister71
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Oct 2 2012, 1:56am
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wow
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
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I totally agree, EXCEPT, if Peter is determined to make Bolg a threat to Gandalf.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
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How do we know
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 2 2012, 10:48am
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There we go
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Carne
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Oct 2 2012, 11:56am
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You see for me
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 1:42pm
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You said blast apart, not me. But, unless the Tolkien you read had missing pages,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 2:27am
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But is the being he fears Gandalf, or Beorn. It is an important question.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:20am
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Gandalf and Bolg will meet,
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 5:48pm
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I can totally see Azog desecrating the corpse
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The Preciousss
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Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
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Beorn?
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 2 2012, 7:38pm
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Agreed
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 2 2012, 10:58pm
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sinister71
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Lusitano
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Oct 2 2012, 2:27pm
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Here's the definition of "Necromancy"
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Carne
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Oct 2 2012, 2:34pm
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I'm glad he SA posted the link
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Phibbus
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Oct 2 2012, 2:02am
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I agree with you as well
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burgahobbit
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Oct 2 2012, 2:03am
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Gandalf is powerful...
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:07am
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I take your point about it taking time for Gandalf to muster strong spells, however that overlooks what first happened with the goblins.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:49am
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I agree
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dubulous
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Oct 2 2012, 5:05am
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whoa whoa whoa whoa
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:15am
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that's just it..
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:17am
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okay i see
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:20am
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3 pages back
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:23am
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It isn't just the toy. Something is chasing a rather concerned Gandalf through the corridors of Dol Guldur
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:54am
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Know what you mean
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DarkJackal
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Oct 2 2012, 3:28am
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I think you're over reacting a little.
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Istaris'staffs
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Oct 2 2012, 3:33am
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Even in the movies, where his powers seem at times sadly diminished from what the novels describe,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:52am
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I'm at a bit of a loss
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 4:57am
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I find it vastly amusing
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 2 2012, 5:13am
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Agreed
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 5:39am
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hehe
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 5:52am
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I also didnt find Ainur
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 7:58am
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Call me sensitive
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 3:10pm
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Agreed
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 4:28pm
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Deep breaths needed?
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Elessar
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Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
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If Ainur wants to come here and
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 6:45pm
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Rules
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Elessar
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Oct 2 2012, 6:51pm
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I'm so late to this party
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 2 2012, 7:37pm
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Of course
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 7:55pm
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Thanks, my good Elf lady. And to Voronwe, glad you enjoyed,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:59pm
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It is very faint
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 3 2012, 12:24am
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I'm not
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 2:52pm
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The Earth would continue to orbit even if Smaug were portrayed as a 200 foot tall kitten
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:51pm
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LOL
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 2 2012, 11:53pm
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You're in luck
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
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The timing is rather suspect...
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SirDennisC
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Oct 2 2012, 11:56pm
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It isn't the merchandising alone. Its a series of things that, put together, could be an issue.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:29pm
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He is not that powerful in The Hobbit.
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macfalk
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Oct 2 2012, 6:21am
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Ainur is not saying
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 7:01am
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I wasn't saying that Ainur said it
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macfalk
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Oct 2 2012, 7:14am
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Well that just isn't the story or the Mythos. That is like saying, " I hate that Superman is so strong"
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:40pm
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Bolg is not "an orc"
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 8:17am
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I beg to
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 8:18am
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And if it's of any comfort
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:41pm
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That would be a real stretch.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm
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Not sure if it's just me
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 2 2012, 11:25pm
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There is some merit to that notion Kangi. The Legendarium does
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:54pm
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seems like a bad deal to me
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 3 2012, 12:13am
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Well, the Balrogs and Wizards (even in the Wizard's limited forms) are Maia of greater
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:16am
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I really want a citation on this idea of Maia Orcs.//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
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It's in Morgoth's Ring
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 12:32am
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Ok I actually found that before you cited it. But this leads to the question
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:39am
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It does seem like it, doesn't it?
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 3 2012, 12:42am
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Verrryyy interesting...
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Tim
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Oct 3 2012, 1:16am
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Spent too much time on Bilbo's contract
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SirDennisC
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Oct 3 2012, 2:24am
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Mmmm. That must be why when The Balrog showed up, Gandalf told the ENTIRE fellowhship
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:57am
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Tolkien deals with spiritual conflict differently to physical
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 7:45am
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Hmm?
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geordie
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Oct 3 2012, 12:26pm
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And Boromir's strength that forced the door closed
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 1:37pm
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It seems that you have a personal theory regarding power & spirituality
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 2:40pm
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I'm suprised it needs to be explained on a fan site
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 2:52pm
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Interesting theory...//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 2:54pm
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From where are you drawing this idea of spiritual presence?//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:27pm
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I don't really agree with this
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Tim
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Oct 3 2012, 4:43pm
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Well said, Tim.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:45pm
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Thanks
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Tim
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Oct 4 2012, 5:37am
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Good company : - )
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 4 2012, 8:30am
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At least as effective against. . . What is your evidence? I think your approach is more D&D
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:18pm
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Not to seem mulish -
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geordie
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Oct 3 2012, 8:44pm
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In the movie, Geordie. Fandragon was speaking of the movie killing of Trolls,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 9:18pm
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I can see no reason to worry about this stuff
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triptrap
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Oct 2 2012, 11:36am
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Who says Bolg will give him any trouble at all?
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dave_lf
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Oct 2 2012, 12:22pm
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And he will know fear...
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:39pm
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Movie Gandalf isn't that powerful
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stoutfiles
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Oct 2 2012, 12:29pm
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In tolkien, no fight is won in advance
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:48pm
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Bilbo was meant to find the ring . . .
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 3 2012, 4:25pm
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There have been arguments about free will versus fate for ages.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 4:46pm
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Yeah, I could have been clearer ^^
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 6:42pm
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I agree with you IN PART, but with lots of caveats
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:44pm
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Oddly the LOTR films have established a sort of consistency.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 8:04pm
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There is some kind of explanation i think
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
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Spirit trumps flesh.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
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Not if the trailer is any indication. If you look at the Troll scene,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
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I think
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
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