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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Oct 3 2012, 7:44pm
Views: 1240
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I agree with you IN PART, but with lots of caveats
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Your statment about Merry and Eowyn vs. The Witch King is a good one, and one I have made myself (though The Witch King would only have really been as powerful as Gandalf, if a great part of Sauron's will and strength were focused upon/lent into him, I think), but I don't think this suggests that anybody can beat anybody else on any given day, depending on the weather. Fate is really just a manifestation of Greater Powers, whether those powers be of The Ainur, Maia and/or Valar (Melkor included) or, at the highest degree, of Eru Himself. Those Supreme Powers may, in ascending orders, trump the will and force of lesser Powers. If The Will of Eru Predetermines a moment or event, even the very Mighty will not prevail against it, even if His instrument is one of the weak. So Glorfindel, who would likely have been more than a match of The Witch King in 1975 of The Third Age ( when Sauron was both still in hiding, with no hope yet of recovering his Great Ring, and in a much weaker state than we find him by the time of FellowhshipOTR) makes no attempt to pursue the fleeing Nazgul Lord, forseeing that the time for the villains fall is not at hand. But I don't think these films are going to be able to adequately convey the notion that it is the power of Sauron or of Melkor from Afar that is actually giving Bolg a chance against Gandalf (should it come to that). It certainly wasn't made clear in the ROTK EE abomination scene. For the laymen viewer, it would simply look as though Gandalf were being put to a hard test by a single orc captain. And the questions of "why doesn't he use/why didn't he just" would certainly come up, because even without looking to the books and with just other film (hobbit and LOTR) events as a refference, Gandalf has been seen/will be seen to do enough things (Balrog fight, Saruman fight etc.) which suggest that he ought to be able to put a pretty thorough smackdown on any lone orc that dared to confront him. The witch king is defeated by Merry and he was possibly as powerful as gandalf, who is more powerful thand Merry... so battles in Tolkien litterature aren't magic power contest. In fact, it's more about fate making a decision, so Gandalf is not unvulnerable and Bolg could be real threat to him "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 1:06am
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My take
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Phibbus
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Oct 2 2012, 1:22am
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I think that's what is happening
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 1:34am
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Great Goblin and Boldogs
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:24am
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You may be right.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 1:48am
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maybe I'm in the minority here but...
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Sinister71
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Oct 2 2012, 1:56am
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wow
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
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I totally agree, EXCEPT, if Peter is determined to make Bolg a threat to Gandalf.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
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How do we know
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 2 2012, 10:48am
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There we go
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Carne
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Oct 2 2012, 11:56am
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You see for me
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 1:42pm
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You said blast apart, not me. But, unless the Tolkien you read had missing pages,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 2:27am
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But is the being he fears Gandalf, or Beorn. It is an important question.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:20am
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Gandalf and Bolg will meet,
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 5:48pm
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I can totally see Azog desecrating the corpse
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The Preciousss
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Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
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Beorn?
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 2 2012, 7:38pm
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Agreed
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 2 2012, 10:58pm
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sinister71
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Lusitano
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Oct 2 2012, 2:27pm
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Here's the definition of "Necromancy"
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Carne
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Oct 2 2012, 2:34pm
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I'm glad he SA posted the link
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Phibbus
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Oct 2 2012, 2:02am
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I agree with you as well
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burgahobbit
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Oct 2 2012, 2:03am
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Gandalf is powerful...
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:07am
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I take your point about it taking time for Gandalf to muster strong spells, however that overlooks what first happened with the goblins.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:49am
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I agree
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dubulous
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Oct 2 2012, 5:05am
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whoa whoa whoa whoa
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:15am
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that's just it..
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:17am
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okay i see
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:20am
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3 pages back
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:23am
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It isn't just the toy. Something is chasing a rather concerned Gandalf through the corridors of Dol Guldur
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:54am
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Know what you mean
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DarkJackal
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Oct 2 2012, 3:28am
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I think you're over reacting a little.
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Istaris'staffs
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Oct 2 2012, 3:33am
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Even in the movies, where his powers seem at times sadly diminished from what the novels describe,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:52am
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I'm at a bit of a loss
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 4:57am
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I find it vastly amusing
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 2 2012, 5:13am
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Agreed
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 5:39am
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hehe
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 5:52am
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I also didnt find Ainur
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 7:58am
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Call me sensitive
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 3:10pm
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Agreed
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 4:28pm
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Deep breaths needed?
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Elessar
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Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
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If Ainur wants to come here and
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 6:45pm
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Rules
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Elessar
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Oct 2 2012, 6:51pm
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I'm so late to this party
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 2 2012, 7:37pm
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Of course
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 7:55pm
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Thanks, my good Elf lady. And to Voronwe, glad you enjoyed,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:59pm
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It is very faint
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 3 2012, 12:24am
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I'm not
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 2:52pm
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The Earth would continue to orbit even if Smaug were portrayed as a 200 foot tall kitten
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:51pm
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LOL
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 2 2012, 11:53pm
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You're in luck
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
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The timing is rather suspect...
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SirDennisC
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Oct 2 2012, 11:56pm
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It isn't the merchandising alone. Its a series of things that, put together, could be an issue.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:29pm
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He is not that powerful in The Hobbit.
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macfalk
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Oct 2 2012, 6:21am
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Ainur is not saying
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 7:01am
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I wasn't saying that Ainur said it
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macfalk
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Oct 2 2012, 7:14am
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Well that just isn't the story or the Mythos. That is like saying, " I hate that Superman is so strong"
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:40pm
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Bolg is not "an orc"
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 8:17am
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I beg to
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 8:18am
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And if it's of any comfort
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:41pm
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That would be a real stretch.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm
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Not sure if it's just me
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 2 2012, 11:25pm
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There is some merit to that notion Kangi. The Legendarium does
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:54pm
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seems like a bad deal to me
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 3 2012, 12:13am
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Well, the Balrogs and Wizards (even in the Wizard's limited forms) are Maia of greater
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:16am
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I really want a citation on this idea of Maia Orcs.//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
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It's in Morgoth's Ring
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 12:32am
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Ok I actually found that before you cited it. But this leads to the question
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:39am
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It does seem like it, doesn't it?
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 3 2012, 12:42am
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Verrryyy interesting...
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Tim
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Oct 3 2012, 1:16am
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Spent too much time on Bilbo's contract
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SirDennisC
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Oct 3 2012, 2:24am
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Mmmm. That must be why when The Balrog showed up, Gandalf told the ENTIRE fellowhship
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:57am
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Tolkien deals with spiritual conflict differently to physical
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 7:45am
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Hmm?
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geordie
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Oct 3 2012, 12:26pm
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And Boromir's strength that forced the door closed
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 1:37pm
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It seems that you have a personal theory regarding power & spirituality
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 2:40pm
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I'm suprised it needs to be explained on a fan site
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 2:52pm
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Interesting theory...//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 2:54pm
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From where are you drawing this idea of spiritual presence?//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:27pm
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I don't really agree with this
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Tim
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Oct 3 2012, 4:43pm
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Well said, Tim.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:45pm
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Thanks
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Tim
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Oct 4 2012, 5:37am
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Good company : - )
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 4 2012, 8:30am
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At least as effective against. . . What is your evidence? I think your approach is more D&D
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:18pm
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Not to seem mulish -
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geordie
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Oct 3 2012, 8:44pm
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In the movie, Geordie. Fandragon was speaking of the movie killing of Trolls,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 9:18pm
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I can see no reason to worry about this stuff
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triptrap
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Oct 2 2012, 11:36am
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Who says Bolg will give him any trouble at all?
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dave_lf
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Oct 2 2012, 12:22pm
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And he will know fear...
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:39pm
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Movie Gandalf isn't that powerful
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stoutfiles
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Oct 2 2012, 12:29pm
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In tolkien, no fight is won in advance
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:48pm
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Bilbo was meant to find the ring . . .
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 3 2012, 4:25pm
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There have been arguments about free will versus fate for ages.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 4:46pm
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Yeah, I could have been clearer ^^
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 6:42pm
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I agree with you IN PART, but with lots of caveats
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:44pm
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Oddly the LOTR films have established a sort of consistency.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 8:04pm
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There is some kind of explanation i think
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
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Spirit trumps flesh.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
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Not if the trailer is any indication. If you look at the Troll scene,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
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I think
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
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