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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Oct 3 2012, 12:51am
Views: 714
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Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book.
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I am not basing my quotes on any Dungeons and Dragons manual. You are simply pretending that whole scenes in the novels did not happen, because you preffer Gandalf as a more limited creature than he actually is. Are you saying that he DIDN'T kill those goblins with a blast? That the book is wrong? I didn't say he was without limitation. It is likely that such a forceful display was taxing and required a little time and breathing space for him to repeat. I did read The Simlarillion. You will recall such things as Sauron defying the Lightning of The Valar as he stood atop the Numenorean Temple, ere it was cast into the sea. Aragorn's dealing with five (not Nine) Nazgul is a much questioned case. Also, they had achieved the infection of Frodo, and were likely already greatly weakened when Aragorn encountered them. . . because mere days before they were locked in an 8 to 12 hour battle with one of the mightier of The Istari! There is more than indication, there is explicit commentary. To Gimli, Aragorn (who is wielding the reforged Narsil as Anduril!) and Legolas, The Wizard himself says, "No blame done to you, no harm done to me. Indeed, none of you has ANY weapon that could hurt me." Also, the weapons of The High Elves were very magical, Glorfindel was fated etc. It is not clear that they are stronger. They are a little taller, but the fact that they do the digging doesn't mean they are stronger. Tolkien speaks of Gandalf ocassionally displaying greater than human strength. You are desperate to lessen him, but your arguments aren't well based in what appears in the books. As to invisibility, when the flash was done, no one saw The Wizard. His powers are not spelled out, but the Ring is not made remarkable just because it can make you invisible. Lesser Rings could have that power. Also, did you NOT read the part where I said that the likes of Sauron might well have been able to detect a person who might pass unseen to some lesser creatures (like orc rabble)? And the rest of your arguments are strawmen. I said, as did the book, that The Wizard could blast a few orcs away in a pinch. That does not equate to being able to blow up entire buildings, or shoot fireballs out of your eyes to consume giant tree people, one after another. Also, Gandalf was more skilled with fire enchantments than Saruman. 1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc. If he could do that, why doesn't he blast the worgs, or the trolls, or the wolves, or the Watcher in the Water? Why does he need to create a detraction of smoke and fire if he could just blast everything in his path with lightning? Read the Silmarillion. Not even an unrestrained Maia can do that. 2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way. 3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine? Yes. Bolg is a first rank hero-orc, not cannon fodder. Bolg can beat Thorin. Thorin is a first rank hero, on a similar level to Aragorn. Aragorn can go up against Nazgul, so could Bolg (if they where on opposite sides). As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons, I see not indication of that in the books, and it seems unlikely, since Maia are killed by mortal weapons in the Silmarillion. The Balrog killed by Glorfindel for one. but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so. If he isn't invulnerable (which we know he isn't because he has his arm in a sling after the battle), then he can be defeated by an orc with a sword. He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed. Wrong. it is clear in the Cahadras incident that Boromir and Aragorn are physically stronger than Gandalf, since they clear the path through the snow. And Legolas is faster. his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ." Lifting a single human if far from superhuman. Boromir could have done that easily. It's "hidden" strength because Gandalf looks like an old man. He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin. If you can turn invisible, you don't need destractions of flashes, smoke, and flares to blind your enemies. You would be able to pass through Moria or Dol Guldur in total safety. And it makes magic rings wholly unremarkable. There is no indication that Sauron or any other Maia can become invisible without the aid of Magic rings (Sauron could shapeshift though, and there is some indication that Radagast can too - THIS is a Maia power, but not one Gandalf ever shows any sign of possessing). There are other examples of Istari limitations too. Saruman uses black powder to blast Helm's Deep, not magic (as he does in the animated version). He isn't able to blast the ents out of existence with fireballs. Indeed, if his magic was as powerful as you imagine, why would machines and technology hold any interest for him, when he could do anything more easily with magic? That's quite enough. I'm sorry, but your ideas about what wizards can do owes more to Dungeons and Dragons (and the sort of fantasies that Sam Gamgee believes) that the subtle magic of Tolkein. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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I am happily convinced Gandalf won't be captured with the dwarves, but now I worry if he will be with the company at all when the attack happens
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 1:57am
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If he is not with the dwarves
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Fàfnir
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Sep 26 2012, 2:27am
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Thorin suspects him of eating their food
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dave_lf
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Sep 26 2012, 4:12am
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So the rumors say
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 26 2012, 4:32am
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Worry not.
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Milknut
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Sep 26 2012, 5:45am
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Er, those photos
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 26 2012, 5:55am
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'Tis not the cave
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DanielLB
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Sep 26 2012, 7:06am
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more proof
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titanium_hobbit
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Sep 26 2012, 7:51am
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It's an eagle toy, from Rivendell :-) /
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DanielLB
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Sep 26 2012, 7:53am
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This is the picture I was talking about.
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 9:15pm
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The tree is at the front of the cave though, Bilbo could be in the back
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Carne
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Sep 26 2012, 9:27pm
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Although we can only see four of the party in that shot in total.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Sep 26 2012, 10:08pm
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I was thinking about this shot too, Milknut, but I keep wondering if this is in the cave shot
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 8:58pm
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Some element of change
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DanielLB
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Sep 26 2012, 7:07am
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Why?
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Milknut
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Sep 26 2012, 7:52am
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Because they're making the films, and not us ;-)
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DanielLB
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Sep 26 2012, 7:54am
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Maybe that was all part of an elaborate dream sequence!
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Milknut
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Sep 26 2012, 7:55am
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lighting in the fight scene
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titanium_hobbit
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Sep 26 2012, 8:08am
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What are you saying?
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Milknut
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Sep 26 2012, 8:10am
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yes- that it's Bilbo's heroics before the abduction
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titanium_hobbit
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Sep 26 2012, 10:10am
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I think
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Fardragon
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Sep 26 2012, 10:21am
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Impossible
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Milknut
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Sep 26 2012, 10:34am
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What heroics?
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dave_lf
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Sep 26 2012, 12:18pm
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Might not be moonlight? /
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DanielLB
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Sep 26 2012, 8:12am
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That is exactly why it is a concern. Because it is a great scene which doesn't need
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 9:34pm
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was wondering that myself
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Sinister71
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Sep 26 2012, 10:10pm
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Thorin an Great Goblin action figure
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Fàfnir
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Sep 26 2012, 11:10pm
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I really don't like this Bolg vs. Gandalf thing. But that maybe deserves a seperate post.
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 11:36pm
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At least we know Gandlf wins ! ^^ /
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Fàfnir
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Sep 26 2012, 11:45pm
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Indeed. Lol. Though it seems more likely they must draw, since Bolg will almost certainly
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 11:51pm
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Bolg
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Carne
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Sep 27 2012, 12:16am
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That statement does not necessarily refer to Gandalf.
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 27 2012, 2:16am
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Bolg's opponent
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dave_lf
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Sep 27 2012, 12:38pm
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I agree.
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Fardragon
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Sep 27 2012, 8:51am
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Here is why that doesn't add up or make sense..
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 28 2012, 1:18am
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Also Carne, even by the less than book potent version of Gandalf seen in LOTR
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 28 2012, 1:30am
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What Gandalf CAN do vs. what he wants (or is allowed) to do
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Tim
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Sep 28 2012, 4:41am
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Right
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 28 2012, 4:57am
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I think the Istari
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Fardragon
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Sep 28 2012, 7:53am
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Exactly
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 28 2012, 4:27pm
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They are restrained, and their greater Spiritual power is, seemingly
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 29 2012, 12:46am
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What is vs. reality
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Tim
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Sep 29 2012, 2:04pm
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I think there is something to your speculation. But my issue isn't with the way Tolkien
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 29 2012, 6:39pm
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Tolkien never portrays Gandalf the Grey as that powerful
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 7:13am
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He was powerful enough though.
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 10:01am
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Only because
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 10:10am
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Depends how you define "power"
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 10:14am
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This is one of the most untrue things I have ever read.
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 10:30am
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Was Galadriel (Third Age) both very powerful, and very wise? /
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 10:36am
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But it's wasn't power that made her wise.
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 10:47am
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Ahh, it seems you misunderstood me then
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 10:50am
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Wisdom can give you a degree of power
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 10:55am
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Agreed
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 11:07am
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I don't think Gandalf
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 2:16pm
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Only Bard could have defeated him then? /
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 2:38pm
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In a sense, yes.
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Fardragon
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Sep 30 2012, 4:40pm
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Yes, Bard was "meant" to
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DanielLB
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Sep 30 2012, 4:45pm
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No. Not just because of Thranduil. Tolkien specifically said he had to find somewhere to
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 1 2012, 8:17am
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Gandalf's power
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Fardragon
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Oct 1 2012, 2:49pm
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Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 12:55am
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You may hero-worship Gandalf, but it's not consistent with Tolkien
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 8:05am
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Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:51am
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He does not blind his opponent with Bright lights. That is a Jackson thing.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 1 2012, 8:09am
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I don't put anything past Peter Jackson
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Sinister71
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Sep 26 2012, 11:55pm
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AHAHAHAHAHHA. . . . wait. . . wait. . .
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AinurOlorin
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Sep 26 2012, 11:58pm
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LOL
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Sinister71
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Sep 27 2012, 12:06am
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Some tweaking
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Elessar
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Sep 27 2012, 12:22am
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Okay...
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Tim
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Sep 27 2012, 2:25am
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Peter's a fan, too, you know.
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Milknut
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Sep 27 2012, 5:55am
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He is most certainly a fan
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 27 2012, 5:58am
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Sharp words!
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Milknut
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Sep 27 2012, 5:59am
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Not at all
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 27 2012, 6:17am
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Um
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Milknut
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Sep 27 2012, 6:20am
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What point?
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Sep 27 2012, 6:22am
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Because he doesn't want his films to be ridiculous?
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dormouse
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Sep 27 2012, 8:00am
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Interest
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JWPlatt
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Sep 27 2012, 8:21am
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That's true of anyone who does anything artistic...
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dormouse
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Sep 27 2012, 10:11am
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