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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 1:06am


Views: 3894
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The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious. Can't Post

This matter managed to hijack another thread which wasn't really made for it. Here is one specifically for it.

To wit, the argument is NOT being made that Gandalf is an unhinderable Zeus figure in this story. But I take some issue with the notion, if it is portrayed thus in the films, that a single orc baddy, even a particularly nasty one like Bolg, would be shown as being anything akin to a real match for The Grey Messenger. Consider,

"The Lights went out, the great fire went off into a tower of glowing blue smoke that scattered white sparks amongst the goblins. . . the sparks were burning holes IN the goblins etc."

The Warg scene in LOTR: "In The Wavering Firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow. He rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king. . . stooping like a cloud, he stode to meet the wargs. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. . . it flared with radiance like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder. . . the tree above him burst into a bloom of brilliant flame. . . the fire lept from tree top to tree top etc. etc."

To quote Sam, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin?! Wolves won't get him! That was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!"

He also battles all The Nine Nazgul Lords, wielding in some fashion searing flame and "lightning that leaps up from the ground" from nightfall until dawn. Do any here think Bolg could manage half as much?


Gandalf is limited in his earthly form, and forbidden from matching the power of Sauron with his own Maia power. He is not an all powerful super badass, and I am not suggesting otherwise. He is, however, very powerful. As mighty, in his way, as dread Powers like The Balrog (who, I will remind you, routed an entire kingdom of dwarves, after slaying their kings and many of their warriors, and the very power and fear of whom drove hosts of Elves from Lothlorien. The Dwarves were bold and fierce, and Dain mighty among them, but they would not dare Moria whilst Durin's Bane remained in residence and mastery there, and Dain specifically said that a greater Power than theirs would have to come through Moria before Durin's folk would walk there again. That Power was Gandalf The Grey). He actually was GOING to kill a great number of the goblins, at his own expense,after the warg chase, hurling down like a Thunderbolt as the book described it.. At The Battle of Five armies, he is merely reffered to as "preparing some magic blast". Yet, the lack of mention beyond him preparing some magic blast does not mean he did nothing worth mentioning. Thorin is in large part mentioned because he led a charge and the focus was on his tale, which was soon to end. Beorn played the key role in the saving of Thorin. The Eagles were the fifth army. One cannot assume that Gandalf, Thranduil, Bard, Dain and a host of other notables did not do any impressive fighting just because Tolkien didn't spend a paragraph of "oh by the way and in the meantime" on each of them.

I am not suggesting for a moment that Gandalf would come through wielding unstoppable Dumbledore spells, but let us dispense right now with the utterly false notion that he never is shown to do more than shine some damn light in people's faces, as some have suggested. Peter may have portrayed it thus (and actually, even Peter actually gives him much more powers than some seem willing to credit him withm and certainly more than enough to overwhelm any lone goblin or orc in combat), but in the books he is clearly shown to wield notable Power, and "while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place." As Strider puts it, "I do not know of anything that could have hindered him, save The Enemy Himself. But do not give up hope! Gandalf is greater than you Shire-Folk know. As a rule you can see only his jokes and toys. . ." Aragorn later says, as they journey through Moria, "Do not be afraid! Do not be afraid. I have been with Gandalf on many a journey, if never one so dark, and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any I have seen."

Lets not totally disregard the books in making our assesments. Gandalf did not storm about the world in an overwhelming godform, but he was a Force to be reckoned with, and beyond the recokoning of any singular orc warrior. For these films to suggest otherwise would not only disrespect Gandalf. . . it would rather badly downplay and disprespect the dread power of The Balrog.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Subject User Time
The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 1:06am
    My take Phibbus Send a private message to Phibbus Oct 2 2012, 1:22am
        I think that's what is happening Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Oct 2 2012, 1:34am
            Great Goblin and Boldogs redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Oct 2 2012, 2:24am
        You may be right. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 1:48am
            maybe I'm in the minority here but... Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Oct 2 2012, 1:56am
                wow grinman Send a private message to grinman Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
                I totally agree, EXCEPT, if Peter is determined to make Bolg a threat to Gandalf. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
                    How do we know Aitieuriskon Send a private message to Aitieuriskon Oct 2 2012, 10:48am
                        There we go Carne Send a private message to Carne Oct 2 2012, 11:56am
                            You see for me Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 2 2012, 1:42pm
                                You said blast apart, not me. But, unless the Tolkien you read had missing pages, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 2:27am
                            But is the being he fears Gandalf, or Beorn. It is an important question. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 12:20am
                                Gandalf and Bolg will meet, Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 3 2012, 5:48pm
                        I can totally see Azog desecrating the corpse The Preciousss Send a private message to The Preciousss Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
                        Beorn? Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 2 2012, 7:38pm
                            Agreed Aitieuriskon Send a private message to Aitieuriskon Oct 2 2012, 10:58pm
                sinister71 Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Oct 2 2012, 2:27pm
                Here's the definition of "Necromancy" Carne Send a private message to Carne Oct 2 2012, 2:34pm
            I'm glad he SA posted the link Phibbus Send a private message to Phibbus Oct 2 2012, 2:02am
        I agree with you as well burgahobbit Send a private message to burgahobbit Oct 2 2012, 2:03am
    Gandalf is powerful... grinman Send a private message to grinman Oct 2 2012, 2:07am
        I take your point about it taking time for Gandalf to muster strong spells, however that overlooks what first happened with the goblins. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 3:49am
        I agree dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Oct 2 2012, 5:05am
    whoa whoa whoa whoa redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Oct 2 2012, 2:15am
        that's just it.. grinman Send a private message to grinman Oct 2 2012, 2:17am
            okay i see redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Oct 2 2012, 2:20am
                3 pages back grinman Send a private message to grinman Oct 2 2012, 2:23am
            It isn't just the toy. Something is chasing a rather concerned Gandalf through the corridors of Dol Guldur AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 3:54am
        Know what you mean DarkJackal Send a private message to DarkJackal Oct 2 2012, 3:28am
    I think you're over reacting a little. Istaris'staffs Send a private message to Istaris'staffs Oct 2 2012, 3:33am
        Even in the movies, where his powers seem at times sadly diminished from what the novels describe, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 3:52am
    I'm at a bit of a loss Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Oct 2 2012, 4:57am
        I find it vastly amusing Voronw_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronw_the_Faithful Oct 2 2012, 5:13am
            Agreed Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Oct 2 2012, 5:39am
                hehe redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Oct 2 2012, 5:52am
                I also didnt find Ainur Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Oct 2 2012, 7:58am
                    Call me sensitive Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Oct 2 2012, 3:10pm
                        Agreed Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Oct 2 2012, 4:28pm
                            Deep breaths needed? Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
                                If Ainur wants to come here and Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Oct 2 2012, 6:45pm
                                    Rules Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Oct 2 2012, 6:51pm
                                        I'm so late to this party There&ThereAgain Send a private message to There&ThereAgain Oct 2 2012, 7:37pm
                                    Of course Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Oct 2 2012, 7:55pm
                    Thanks, my good Elf lady. And to Voronwe, glad you enjoyed, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 11:59pm
                        It is very faint Aitieuriskon Send a private message to Aitieuriskon Oct 3 2012, 12:24am
                I'm not Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Oct 2 2012, 2:52pm
            The Earth would continue to orbit even if Smaug were portrayed as a 200 foot tall kitten AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 11:51pm
                LOL Voronw_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronw_the_Faithful Oct 2 2012, 11:53pm
                    You're in luck Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
                The timing is rather suspect... SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 2 2012, 11:56pm
        It isn't the merchandising alone. Its a series of things that, put together, could be an issue. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 11:29pm
    He is not that powerful in The Hobbit. macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Oct 2 2012, 6:21am
        Ainur is not saying Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Oct 2 2012, 7:01am
            I wasn't saying that Ainur said it macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Oct 2 2012, 7:14am
                Well that just isn't the story or the Mythos. That is like saying, " I hate that Superman is so strong" AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 11:40pm
    Bolg is not "an orc" Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 2 2012, 8:17am
        I beg to Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Oct 2 2012, 8:18am
        And if it's of any comfort Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 2 2012, 4:41pm
            That would be a real stretch. Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm
                Not sure if it's just me Lacrimae Rerum Send a private message to Lacrimae Rerum Oct 2 2012, 11:25pm
                There is some merit to that notion Kangi. The Legendarium does AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 11:54pm
                    seems like a bad deal to me There&ThereAgain Send a private message to There&ThereAgain Oct 3 2012, 12:13am
                        Well, the Balrogs and Wizards (even in the Wizard's limited forms) are Maia of greater AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 12:16am
                    I really want a citation on this idea of Maia Orcs.// Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
                        It's in Morgoth's Ring Lacrimae Rerum Send a private message to Lacrimae Rerum Oct 3 2012, 12:32am
                            Ok I actually found that before you cited it. But this leads to the question Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 3 2012, 12:39am
                                It does seem like it, doesn't it? Aitieuriskon Send a private message to Aitieuriskon Oct 3 2012, 12:42am
                            Verrryyy interesting... Tim Send a private message to Tim Oct 3 2012, 1:16am
                                Spent too much time on Bilbo's contract SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Oct 3 2012, 2:24am
        Mmmm. That must be why when The Balrog showed up, Gandalf told the ENTIRE fellowhship AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 12:57am
            Tolkien deals with spiritual conflict differently to physical Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 3 2012, 7:45am
                Hmm? geordie Send a private message to geordie Oct 3 2012, 12:26pm
                    And Boromir's strength that forced the door closed Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 3 2012, 1:37pm
                        It seems that you have a personal theory regarding power & spirituality Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 3 2012, 2:40pm
                            I'm suprised it needs to be explained on a fan site Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 3 2012, 2:52pm
                                Interesting theory...// Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 3 2012, 2:54pm
                From where are you drawing this idea of spiritual presence?// Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 3 2012, 12:27pm
                I don't really agree with this Tim Send a private message to Tim Oct 3 2012, 4:43pm
                    Well said, Tim. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 7:45pm
                        Thanks Tim Send a private message to Tim Oct 4 2012, 5:37am
                            Good company : - ) AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 4 2012, 8:30am
                At least as effective against. . . What is your evidence? I think your approach is more D&D AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 7:18pm
                    Not to seem mulish - geordie Send a private message to geordie Oct 3 2012, 8:44pm
                        In the movie, Geordie. Fandragon was speaking of the movie killing of Trolls, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 9:18pm
    I can see no reason to worry about this stuff triptrap Send a private message to triptrap Oct 2 2012, 11:36am
    Who says Bolg will give him any trouble at all? dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Oct 2 2012, 12:22pm
        And he will know fear... Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 2 2012, 4:39pm
    Movie Gandalf isn't that powerful stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Oct 2 2012, 12:29pm
    In tolkien, no fight is won in advance Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 2 2012, 4:48pm
        Bilbo was meant to find the ring . . . Beren0nehanded Send a private message to Beren0nehanded Oct 3 2012, 4:25pm
            There have been arguments about free will versus fate for ages. Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Oct 3 2012, 4:46pm
            Yeah, I could have been clearer ^^ Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 3 2012, 6:42pm
        I agree with you IN PART, but with lots of caveats AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 7:44pm
            Oddly the LOTR films have established a sort of consistency. Lacrimae Rerum Send a private message to Lacrimae Rerum Oct 3 2012, 8:04pm
                There is some kind of explanation i think Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
                    Spirit trumps flesh. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
                Not if the trailer is any indication. If you look at the Troll scene, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
                    I think Lacrimae Rerum Send a private message to Lacrimae Rerum Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm

 
 
 

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