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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Oct 2 2012, 1:06am
Views: 4653
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The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.
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Can't Post
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This matter managed to hijack another thread which wasn't really made for it. Here is one specifically for it. To wit, the argument is NOT being made that Gandalf is an unhinderable Zeus figure in this story. But I take some issue with the notion, if it is portrayed thus in the films, that a single orc baddy, even a particularly nasty one like Bolg, would be shown as being anything akin to a real match for The Grey Messenger. Consider, "The Lights went out, the great fire went off into a tower of glowing blue smoke that scattered white sparks amongst the goblins. . . the sparks were burning holes IN the goblins etc." The Warg scene in LOTR: "In The Wavering Firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow. He rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king. . . stooping like a cloud, he stode to meet the wargs. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. . . it flared with radiance like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder. . . the tree above him burst into a bloom of brilliant flame. . . the fire lept from tree top to tree top etc. etc." To quote Sam, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin?! Wolves won't get him! That was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!" He also battles all The Nine Nazgul Lords, wielding in some fashion searing flame and "lightning that leaps up from the ground" from nightfall until dawn. Do any here think Bolg could manage half as much? Gandalf is limited in his earthly form, and forbidden from matching the power of Sauron with his own Maia power. He is not an all powerful super badass, and I am not suggesting otherwise. He is, however, very powerful. As mighty, in his way, as dread Powers like The Balrog (who, I will remind you, routed an entire kingdom of dwarves, after slaying their kings and many of their warriors, and the very power and fear of whom drove hosts of Elves from Lothlorien. The Dwarves were bold and fierce, and Dain mighty among them, but they would not dare Moria whilst Durin's Bane remained in residence and mastery there, and Dain specifically said that a greater Power than theirs would have to come through Moria before Durin's folk would walk there again. That Power was Gandalf The Grey). He actually was GOING to kill a great number of the goblins, at his own expense,after the warg chase, hurling down like a Thunderbolt as the book described it.. At The Battle of Five armies, he is merely reffered to as "preparing some magic blast". Yet, the lack of mention beyond him preparing some magic blast does not mean he did nothing worth mentioning. Thorin is in large part mentioned because he led a charge and the focus was on his tale, which was soon to end. Beorn played the key role in the saving of Thorin. The Eagles were the fifth army. One cannot assume that Gandalf, Thranduil, Bard, Dain and a host of other notables did not do any impressive fighting just because Tolkien didn't spend a paragraph of "oh by the way and in the meantime" on each of them. I am not suggesting for a moment that Gandalf would come through wielding unstoppable Dumbledore spells, but let us dispense right now with the utterly false notion that he never is shown to do more than shine some damn light in people's faces, as some have suggested. Peter may have portrayed it thus (and actually, even Peter actually gives him much more powers than some seem willing to credit him withm and certainly more than enough to overwhelm any lone goblin or orc in combat), but in the books he is clearly shown to wield notable Power, and "while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place." As Strider puts it, "I do not know of anything that could have hindered him, save The Enemy Himself. But do not give up hope! Gandalf is greater than you Shire-Folk know. As a rule you can see only his jokes and toys. . ." Aragorn later says, as they journey through Moria, "Do not be afraid! Do not be afraid. I have been with Gandalf on many a journey, if never one so dark, and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any I have seen." Lets not totally disregard the books in making our assesments. Gandalf did not storm about the world in an overwhelming godform, but he was a Force to be reckoned with, and beyond the recokoning of any singular orc warrior. For these films to suggest otherwise would not only disrespect Gandalf. . . it would rather badly downplay and disprespect the dread power of The Balrog.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 1:06am
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My take
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Phibbus
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Oct 2 2012, 1:22am
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I think that's what is happening
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 1:34am
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Great Goblin and Boldogs
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:24am
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You may be right.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 1:48am
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maybe I'm in the minority here but...
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Sinister71
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Oct 2 2012, 1:56am
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wow
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
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I totally agree, EXCEPT, if Peter is determined to make Bolg a threat to Gandalf.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 2:11am
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How do we know
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 2 2012, 10:48am
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There we go
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Carne
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Oct 2 2012, 11:56am
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You see for me
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 1:42pm
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You said blast apart, not me. But, unless the Tolkien you read had missing pages,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 2:27am
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But is the being he fears Gandalf, or Beorn. It is an important question.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:20am
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Gandalf and Bolg will meet,
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 5:48pm
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I can totally see Azog desecrating the corpse
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The Preciousss
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Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
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Beorn?
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 2 2012, 7:38pm
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Agreed
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 2 2012, 10:58pm
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sinister71
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Lusitano
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Oct 2 2012, 2:27pm
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Here's the definition of "Necromancy"
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Carne
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Oct 2 2012, 2:34pm
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I'm glad he SA posted the link
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Phibbus
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Oct 2 2012, 2:02am
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I agree with you as well
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burgahobbit
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Oct 2 2012, 2:03am
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Gandalf is powerful...
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:07am
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I take your point about it taking time for Gandalf to muster strong spells, however that overlooks what first happened with the goblins.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:49am
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I agree
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dubulous
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Oct 2 2012, 5:05am
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whoa whoa whoa whoa
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:15am
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that's just it..
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:17am
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okay i see
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 2:20am
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3 pages back
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grinman
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Oct 2 2012, 2:23am
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It isn't just the toy. Something is chasing a rather concerned Gandalf through the corridors of Dol Guldur
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:54am
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Know what you mean
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DarkJackal
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Oct 2 2012, 3:28am
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I think you're over reacting a little.
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Istaris'staffs
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Oct 2 2012, 3:33am
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Even in the movies, where his powers seem at times sadly diminished from what the novels describe,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 3:52am
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I'm at a bit of a loss
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 4:57am
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I find it vastly amusing
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 2 2012, 5:13am
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Agreed
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 5:39am
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hehe
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redgiraffe
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Oct 2 2012, 5:52am
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I also didnt find Ainur
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 7:58am
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Call me sensitive
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 3:10pm
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Agreed
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 4:28pm
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Deep breaths needed?
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Elessar
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Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm
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If Ainur wants to come here and
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 6:45pm
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Rules
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Elessar
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Oct 2 2012, 6:51pm
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I'm so late to this party
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 2 2012, 7:37pm
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Of course
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 7:55pm
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Thanks, my good Elf lady. And to Voronwe, glad you enjoyed,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:59pm
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It is very faint
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 3 2012, 12:24am
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I'm not
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Altaira
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Oct 2 2012, 2:52pm
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The Earth would continue to orbit even if Smaug were portrayed as a 200 foot tall kitten
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:51pm
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LOL
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 2 2012, 11:53pm
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You're in luck
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
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The timing is rather suspect...
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SirDennisC
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Oct 2 2012, 11:56pm
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It isn't the merchandising alone. Its a series of things that, put together, could be an issue.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:29pm
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He is not that powerful in The Hobbit.
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macfalk
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Oct 2 2012, 6:21am
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Ainur is not saying
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Oct 2 2012, 7:01am
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I wasn't saying that Ainur said it
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macfalk
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Oct 2 2012, 7:14am
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Well that just isn't the story or the Mythos. That is like saying, " I hate that Superman is so strong"
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:40pm
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Bolg is not "an orc"
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Fardragon
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Oct 2 2012, 8:17am
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I beg to
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Elenorflower
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Oct 2 2012, 8:18am
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And if it's of any comfort
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:41pm
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That would be a real stretch.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm
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Not sure if it's just me
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 2 2012, 11:25pm
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There is some merit to that notion Kangi. The Legendarium does
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 2 2012, 11:54pm
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seems like a bad deal to me
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There&ThereAgain
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Oct 3 2012, 12:13am
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Well, the Balrogs and Wizards (even in the Wizard's limited forms) are Maia of greater
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:16am
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I really want a citation on this idea of Maia Orcs.//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:21am
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It's in Morgoth's Ring
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 12:32am
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Ok I actually found that before you cited it. But this leads to the question
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:39am
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It does seem like it, doesn't it?
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Aitieuriskon
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Oct 3 2012, 12:42am
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Verrryyy interesting...
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Tim
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Oct 3 2012, 1:16am
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Spent too much time on Bilbo's contract
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SirDennisC
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Oct 3 2012, 2:24am
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Mmmm. That must be why when The Balrog showed up, Gandalf told the ENTIRE fellowhship
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 12:57am
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Tolkien deals with spiritual conflict differently to physical
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 7:45am
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Hmm?
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geordie
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Oct 3 2012, 12:26pm
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And Boromir's strength that forced the door closed
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 1:37pm
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It seems that you have a personal theory regarding power & spirituality
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 2:40pm
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I'm suprised it needs to be explained on a fan site
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Fardragon
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Oct 3 2012, 2:52pm
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Interesting theory...//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 2:54pm
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From where are you drawing this idea of spiritual presence?//
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 12:27pm
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I don't really agree with this
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Tim
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Oct 3 2012, 4:43pm
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Well said, Tim.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:45pm
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Thanks
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Tim
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Oct 4 2012, 5:37am
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Good company : - )
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 4 2012, 8:30am
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At least as effective against. . . What is your evidence? I think your approach is more D&D
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:18pm
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Not to seem mulish -
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geordie
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Oct 3 2012, 8:44pm
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In the movie, Geordie. Fandragon was speaking of the movie killing of Trolls,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 9:18pm
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I can see no reason to worry about this stuff
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triptrap
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Oct 2 2012, 11:36am
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Who says Bolg will give him any trouble at all?
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dave_lf
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Oct 2 2012, 12:22pm
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And he will know fear...
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:39pm
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Movie Gandalf isn't that powerful
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stoutfiles
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Oct 2 2012, 12:29pm
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In tolkien, no fight is won in advance
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Fàfnir
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Oct 2 2012, 4:48pm
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Bilbo was meant to find the ring . . .
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Beren0nehanded
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Oct 3 2012, 4:25pm
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There have been arguments about free will versus fate for ages.
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Kangi Ska
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Oct 3 2012, 4:46pm
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Yeah, I could have been clearer ^^
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 6:42pm
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I agree with you IN PART, but with lots of caveats
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 7:44pm
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Oddly the LOTR films have established a sort of consistency.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 8:04pm
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There is some kind of explanation i think
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Fàfnir
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Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
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Spirit trumps flesh.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
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Not if the trailer is any indication. If you look at the Troll scene,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm
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I think
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm
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