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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 12:55am


Views: 324
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Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later. [In reply to] Can't Post

1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.

3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?

As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons, but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.

He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed. Aside from obvious things like surviving the fall with The Balrog, or in the films, surviving Saruman propelling him at high speeds against the walls and high ceiling of Orthanc, there are comments in the books, including his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."

He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin. Goblins see very well in the dark, so the fact that after the flash they had no better idea of where he had dissapeared to than the dwarves suggest some ability to become quite unobtrusive. Invisibility was the least of The Ring's Powers, and was not a distinguishing trait, else it would have been identified sooner. Of course, invisibility that works on Orcs would likely not work against Balrogs, Sauron or other Spiritually powerful evils.

Isildur, Gil-Galad and Elindil (who together overwhelmed Sauron) were fated. Eowyn and Merry were far outmatched by THe Witch King, but sometimes fate and The Will of The Valar prevails over the balance of lesser Powers.

As to defeating Elves and Men defeating Maia. . . rare and legendary even for The High Elves. There is no account of a mortal human doing so, save the mixed situation of Isildur, after Sauron had already been worn by battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil together.

In Reply To
boils down to simply knowing what to do in a given situation.

Can he blast enemies out of existence with magic? Maybe some weak ones, but most he has to stick with a sword, just like everyone else. Your example indicated what he isn't capable of doing: blasting 88 goblins. Nor can he blast Nazgul, or trolls, or the Great Goblin, or wargs.

Is he immune to injury? No, his physical form can be injured or killed with a weapon just like a mortal. He can be sent back if the Valar choose, but he will need a new body and it takes some time to recover.

Does he have superhuman strength? Can he fly? Can he teleport? Can he move at superhuman speed? Can he turn invisible? is he incorruptible? No to all of these.

Even a Maia at full power, augmented by the ring of power, can be defeated by a mortal (Isuldur, and that's not the only time mortals and elves defeat Maia in combat).

And, the Istari are further limited by the physical forms they inhabit. Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. It's the same Maia, so the power level must be tied to the physical form.

And then he has "rules of engagement", to use a modern military term, which limit what he is allowed to do.

To summarise:

1) Maia are far from omnipotent, and can be defeated by mortals.

2) Istari are further limited by the form they inhabit.

3) They are limited further by rules they are supposed to follow.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Subject User Time
I am happily convinced Gandalf won't be captured with the dwarves, but now I worry if he will be with the company at all when the attack happens AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 1:57am
    If he is not with the dwarves Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Sep 26 2012, 2:27am
    Thorin suspects him of eating their food dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Sep 26 2012, 4:12am
        So the rumors say Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 26 2012, 4:32am
    Worry not. Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 5:45am
        Er, those photos Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 26 2012, 5:55am
        'Tis not the cave DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:06am
        more proof titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Sep 26 2012, 7:51am
            It's an eagle toy, from Rivendell :-) / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:53am
            This is the picture I was talking about. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 9:15pm
                The tree is at the front of the cave though, Bilbo could be in the back Carne Send a private message to Carne Sep 26 2012, 9:27pm
                Although we can only see four of the party in that shot in total. Lacrimae Rerum Send a private message to Lacrimae Rerum Sep 26 2012, 10:08pm
        I was thinking about this shot too, Milknut, but I keep wondering if this is in the cave shot AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 8:58pm
    Some element of change DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:07am
        Why? Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 7:52am
            Because they're making the films, and not us ;-) DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:54am
                Maybe that was all part of an elaborate dream sequence! Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 7:55am
                    lighting in the fight scene titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Sep 26 2012, 8:08am
                        What are you saying? Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 8:10am
                            yes- that it's Bilbo's heroics before the abduction titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Sep 26 2012, 10:10am
                                I think Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 26 2012, 10:21am
                                    Impossible Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 10:34am
                                    What heroics? dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Sep 26 2012, 12:18pm
                        Might not be moonlight? / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 8:12am
            That is exactly why it is a concern. Because it is a great scene which doesn't need AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 9:34pm
                was wondering that myself Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Sep 26 2012, 10:10pm
                Thorin an Great Goblin action figure Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Sep 26 2012, 11:10pm
                    I really don't like this Bolg vs. Gandalf thing. But that maybe deserves a seperate post. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 11:36pm
                        At least we know Gandlf wins ! ^^ / Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Sep 26 2012, 11:45pm
                            Indeed. Lol. Though it seems more likely they must draw, since Bolg will almost certainly AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 11:51pm
                                Bolg Carne Send a private message to Carne Sep 27 2012, 12:16am
                                    That statement does not necessarily refer to Gandalf. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 27 2012, 2:16am
                                        Bolg's opponent dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Sep 27 2012, 12:38pm
                                    I agree. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 27 2012, 8:51am
                                        Here is why that doesn't add up or make sense.. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 28 2012, 1:18am
                                    Also Carne, even by the less than book potent version of Gandalf seen in LOTR AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 28 2012, 1:30am
                                        What Gandalf CAN do vs. what he wants (or is allowed) to do Tim Send a private message to Tim Sep 28 2012, 4:41am
                                            Right Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 28 2012, 4:57am
                                                I think the Istari Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 28 2012, 7:53am
                                                    Exactly Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 28 2012, 4:27pm
                                                    They are restrained, and their greater Spiritual power is, seemingly AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 29 2012, 12:46am
                                                        What is vs. reality Tim Send a private message to Tim Sep 29 2012, 2:04pm
                                                            I think there is something to your speculation. But my issue isn't with the way Tolkien AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 29 2012, 6:39pm
                                                                Tolkien never portrays Gandalf the Grey as that powerful Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 7:13am
                                                                    He was powerful enough though. DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:01am
                                                                        Only because Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:10am
                                                                            Depends how you define "power" DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:14am
                                                                                This is one of the most untrue things I have ever read. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:30am
                                                                                    Was Galadriel (Third Age) both very powerful, and very wise? / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:36am
                                                                                        But it's wasn't power that made her wise. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:47am
                                                                                            Ahh, it seems you misunderstood me then DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:50am
                                                                                                Wisdom can give you a degree of power Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:55am
                                                                                                    Agreed DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 11:07am
                                                                                                        I don't think Gandalf Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 2:16pm
                                                                                                            Only Bard could have defeated him then? / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 2:38pm
                                                                                                                In a sense, yes. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 4:40pm
                                                                                                                    Yes, Bard was "meant" to DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 4:45pm
                                                                            No. Not just because of Thranduil. Tolkien specifically said he had to find somewhere to AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 1 2012, 8:17am
                                                                                Gandalf's power Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 1 2012, 2:49pm
                                                                                    Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 12:55am
                                                                                        You may hero-worship Gandalf, but it's not consistent with Tolkien Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 2 2012, 8:05am
                                                                                            Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 12:51am
                                                                    He does not blind his opponent with Bright lights. That is a Jackson thing. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 1 2012, 8:09am
                        I don't put anything past Peter Jackson Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Sep 26 2012, 11:55pm
                            AHAHAHAHAHHA. . . . wait. . . wait. . . AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 11:58pm
                                LOL Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Sep 27 2012, 12:06am
                                    Some tweaking Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Sep 27 2012, 12:22am
                            Okay... Tim Send a private message to Tim Sep 27 2012, 2:25am
                            Peter's a fan, too, you know. Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 27 2012, 5:55am
                                He is most certainly a fan Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 27 2012, 5:58am
                                    Sharp words! Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 27 2012, 5:59am
                                        Not at all Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 27 2012, 6:17am
                                            Um Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 27 2012, 6:20am
                                                What point? Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 27 2012, 6:22am
                            Because he doesn't want his films to be ridiculous? dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 27 2012, 8:00am
                                Interest JWPlatt Sep 27 2012, 8:21am
                                    That's true of anyone who does anything artistic... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 27 2012, 10:11am

 
 
 

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