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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Two parallel concepts

Solicitr
Lorien

Sep 9 2012, 4:31pm


Views: 785
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Two parallel concepts [In reply to] Can't Post

One, fading, which goes back to the beginning (my impression is that the "diminutive fairies" of the Cottage of Lost Play were that size as an aspect of 'fading'), and which Tolkien never really changed in essentials although made more sophisticated and metaphysical over T's lifetime;

And then the really separate question of the 'aging' of the hroa. I don't think Rumil helps much here; the Lost Tales concept was that the Gnome-folk were stunted and twisted and aged from their long thraldom, as opposed to their 'free' cousins the Eldar (and Turgon's folk); we're a long way from the demi-angelic High Elves of Tolkien's mature writings.

It is rather hard here to get a grip on the extent to which Elves appeared "older" or "younger." Elrond's famous description manages to make him "neither old nor young;" but then Elrond may not be typical, either, since he's half-elven. Does Arwen appear "younger" than Galadriel? We don't really know; and even if it were the case that might have something to do with childbearing. Certainly it's the case that Galadriel is still accounted supremely beautiful, to the extent Gimli and Eomer could differ sharply vis a vis Arwen.

One gets the impression (and it is only that) that Elves grew in a relatively short span, short enough to be discernable as change, from birth to maturity; after that it gets really vague except in the case of Cirdan, that stinkin' anomaly. Note that Cirdan isn't just described as bearded, or just grey-haired, but explicitly "old."

I can't figure any way to retcon this into orderly shape except to credit Cirdan's physical aging to the passage of years uncounted beyond those of any other Elf we encounter; whatever measurement one uses for Years of the Trees, Cirdan was already astoundingly old even by the time Feanor burned the ships. Note however that Cirdan doesn't appear to be in any way 'faded.'

I suppose one could speculatively suppose that Sindar etc might age at a faster rate than Elves of Valinor; or alternatively that Galadriel and her Valinorean contemporaries didn't age at all until the Exile.* Perhaps both.

*Which raises the question of Celeborn, and maybe strengthens the argument that he was a Teler of Alqualonde rather than a Sinda.

Subject User Time
When do Elves stop ageing? iandea14 Send a private message to iandea14 Sep 5 2012, 7:20am
    The closest we can come to answers... Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Sep 5 2012, 8:12am
        Thank you! iandea14 Send a private message to iandea14 Sep 5 2012, 8:24am
        This is interesting, and confusing lol rings7 Send a private message to rings7 Sep 5 2012, 9:54pm
            Yes, that's right! Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Sep 5 2012, 11:34pm
                Cirdan and Fading Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 6 2012, 5:17pm
                    preservation power Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 6 2012, 5:37pm
                        Maybe both happened Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 6 2012, 5:54pm
            Movie might be wrong iandea14 Send a private message to iandea14 Sep 6 2012, 6:59am
            Elrond PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Sep 7 2012, 1:34am
                Ageless Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 7 2012, 3:44pm
                    Living at the coast Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 7 2012, 4:21pm
                        You of course meant weathered DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 4:29pm
                            I don't think I'd like to see... Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 7 2012, 4:44pm
                                My degree in Geography isn't wasted!! DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 5:11pm
                                    I see now Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 7 2012, 7:16pm
                                        Erosion and weathering! DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 7:23pm
                        See salt Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 7 2012, 5:40pm
                            Sea water only has about 3% salt in it / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 5:57pm
                                But there's a lot of water... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 7 2012, 6:40pm
                                    Mining salt from rock might be easier ;-) / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 7:10pm
                    Tolkien IIRC wrote Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 8 2012, 12:31am
                        innie or outie Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 8 2012, 12:57am
                            Let's face it: Cirdan is an anomaly. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Sep 8 2012, 2:44am
                                facing Cirdan's face Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 8 2012, 3:59am
                                    Young MEN can have beards Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 8 2012, 12:20pm
                                        emphasis more on 'young' men can have beards Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 8 2012, 2:38pm
                                            Fading Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 8 2012, 11:18pm
                                                Lingering on this topic a bit Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 9 2012, 12:59am
                                                    I'd say Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 9 2012, 3:07am
                                                        I agree but is there a 'wrinkle' in the larger idea Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 9 2012, 2:48pm
                                                            Two parallel concepts Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 9 2012, 4:31pm
                                                                closing the door on the door-ward Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 9 2012, 7:47pm
                                                                    Counting the Rings Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 12 2012, 4:31am
    Don't forget Cirdan the Shipwright mandel Send a private message to mandel Sep 5 2012, 11:31pm
    A post from another site i found helpful - hope its ok to do this! imin Send a private message to imin Sep 6 2012, 6:43am
        Quoting others Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 6 2012, 12:26pm
    Tolkien's number Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 6 2012, 9:47pm
    A few more extracts: malickfan Send a private message to malickfan Sep 10 2012, 1:29pm

 
 
 

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