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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Lingering on this topic a bit

Elthir
Rohan

Sep 9 2012, 12:59am


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Lingering on this topic a bit [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok but the idea of the Elvish fea consuming the hroa is still present as part of the legendarium in any event, and referred to in relative detail after The Lord of the Rings was published.

We even have the Lingerers (faded Elves) who can reveal their beautiful forms to Men's minds in certain cases, because the Lingerers are not truly 'Houseless' in the same sense as dead Elves who have refused the Summons to Mandos.

And there are references to Elves ageing slowly, but I can't find any references that necessarily speak to outward signs of ageing. For example, from Laws And Customs Among the Eldar:


Quote

'It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of men is not endless, and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not seperated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of ther spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some men into whose minds they may enter directly.'

Morgoth's Ring



Does 'But this is not so' refer to growing older in the body? Or to the ability to bring forth children at any time, and what follows is a way in which Elves grow older?

To my mind it might mean: although the Eldar do not appear to age, they age internally, which affects things like having children. Granted there is the bit 'as Men deem' but why do they deem such a thing? They aren't necessarily basing something upon an incorrect observation (the Elves they meet appear not to age), but they could be somewhat incorrect about appearances versus internal changes that are not so obvious.

Impulses and moods change, changes of desire and thought. This seems reinforced by (some sentences later) 'Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied, but with the excercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things.'

This is a way in which an Elf ages I think. I note too that we are here dealing with a 'limit' that takes one to the very end of the world! In theory then, we have thousands of years of youthful looking Elves -- and from the other end of the limit, a number of years in which any Elf who had not sailed to Aman has arguably faded -- so, is there a phase of thousands of years of old looking Elves for example, before they fade to invisible (possibly thousands of years before the Great End as well), or is this a relatively brief phase, if a phase at all?

Anyway, I think Tolkien has taken his early idea an expanded upon it, mixing in the idea of the Morgoth-element. Not that you are saying otherwise, but this idea doesn't have to touch any of the tales to be held true as far as the legendarium is concerned (Laws and Customs still seems an internal document, for example, if not a tale in the sense of the tale of Turin for instance).


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 9 2012, 1:08am)

Subject User Time
When do Elves stop ageing? iandea14 Send a private message to iandea14 Sep 5 2012, 7:20am
    The closest we can come to answers... Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Sep 5 2012, 8:12am
        Thank you! iandea14 Send a private message to iandea14 Sep 5 2012, 8:24am
        This is interesting, and confusing lol rings7 Send a private message to rings7 Sep 5 2012, 9:54pm
            Yes, that's right! Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Sep 5 2012, 11:34pm
                Cirdan and Fading Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 6 2012, 5:17pm
                    preservation power Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 6 2012, 5:37pm
                        Maybe both happened Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 6 2012, 5:54pm
            Movie might be wrong iandea14 Send a private message to iandea14 Sep 6 2012, 6:59am
            Elrond PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Sep 7 2012, 1:34am
                Ageless Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 7 2012, 3:44pm
                    Living at the coast Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 7 2012, 4:21pm
                        You of course meant weathered DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 4:29pm
                            I don't think I'd like to see... Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 7 2012, 4:44pm
                                My degree in Geography isn't wasted!! DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 5:11pm
                                    I see now Noel Q. von Schneiffel Send a private message to Noel Q. von Schneiffel Sep 7 2012, 7:16pm
                                        Erosion and weathering! DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 7:23pm
                        See salt Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 7 2012, 5:40pm
                            Sea water only has about 3% salt in it / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 5:57pm
                                But there's a lot of water... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 7 2012, 6:40pm
                                    Mining salt from rock might be easier ;-) / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 7 2012, 7:10pm
                    Tolkien IIRC wrote Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 8 2012, 12:31am
                        innie or outie Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 8 2012, 12:57am
                            Let's face it: Cirdan is an anomaly. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Sep 8 2012, 2:44am
                                facing Cirdan's face Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 8 2012, 3:59am
                                    Young MEN can have beards Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 8 2012, 12:20pm
                                        emphasis more on 'young' men can have beards Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 8 2012, 2:38pm
                                            Fading Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 8 2012, 11:18pm
                                                Lingering on this topic a bit Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 9 2012, 12:59am
                                                    I'd say Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 9 2012, 3:07am
                                                        I agree but is there a 'wrinkle' in the larger idea Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 9 2012, 2:48pm
                                                            Two parallel concepts Solicitr Send a private message to Solicitr Sep 9 2012, 4:31pm
                                                                closing the door on the door-ward Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 9 2012, 7:47pm
                                                                    Counting the Rings Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 12 2012, 4:31am
    Don't forget Cirdan the Shipwright mandel Send a private message to mandel Sep 5 2012, 11:31pm
    A post from another site i found helpful - hope its ok to do this! imin Send a private message to imin Sep 6 2012, 6:43am
        Quoting others Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 6 2012, 12:26pm
    Tolkien's number Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 6 2012, 9:47pm
    A few more extracts: malickfan Send a private message to malickfan Sep 10 2012, 1:29pm

 
 
 

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