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sador
Half-elven
Aug 22 2012, 7:52am
Views: 12112
Shortcut
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This is a complicated question
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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If this was Eru's plan then it is reasonable to assume that Bilbo would also die on the trip. Of course! Bilbo's last version of his walking-song seems clearly indicative of it: The Road goes ever on and on Out from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, Let others follow it who can! Let them a journey new begin, But I at last with weary feet Will turn towards the lighted inn, My evening-rest and sleep to meet.' At least on one level, The Road is a metaphor for life; and Bilbo is clearly turning aside. (This idea is expressed far better than I can by prof. Shippey in Author of the Century, but I think I understood it so even before reading his book.) Note also that Bilbo's final words (in the book) are joy that he beat the Old Took by living to 131 years. Clearly time after embarking doesn't count, and Bilbo has no expectations of it. This would be a meagre reward from Eru for their effort and pain. I do not see sound reasoning for it. Eru is never mentioned before appendix A, and the Valar are only twice, and very opaquely. The whole strength of The Lord of the Rings is that like in the real world, we might have faith but we do not know. Had we explicitly known how Frodo is rewarded, the book would lose much of its tragic point. Even in the Silmarillion, we do not know that Eru Himself rewards mortals for their effort and pain, and definitely not how He does it. Knowing that He is good and cares for elves and men, we can trust and believe that He does; but if so - why in Aman, of all places? This sounds more like the Elves and Valar want to keep the Ringbearers for themselves a bit, before they leave for their ultimate destiny. Even in the later letters, in which Tolkien stated that Frodo did live for some time in the Undying Lands, he called it a "purgatorio" or more pleasantly "healing". By the way, one of the reasons hostile critics dissed The Lord of the Rings as "trash" was by their perception that no real sacrifice or pain is involved; all the good characters (except for Theoden) live happily ever after, like in any children's fairy-tale. And as a last note - have you ever read Leaf by Niggle? One of Tolkien's short stories, which I personally love (although not everyone has a taste for religious allegory). In it, a clear vision is not a "meagre reward" but a Gift. If they only get a glimpse of the Undying Lands why not let them die in peace in their Shire instead? Bilbo has left the Shire forever (well, he will pass through on his way to the Havens). And Frodo cannot find peace in it any more. However, dying in the Shire of having nothing left to live for, is being fatalistic in the opposite direction. I am not arguing that Frodo did not get to Valinor. He set out on his last, ultimate Quest. Whether he succeeded or not is a matter of faith. And I contend that leaving this to faith is exactly what makes The Lord of the Rings more meaningful, and more 'true' than Lewis' The Last Battle. (Where is Curious? He could say this far better than I can.) Why can they not reach the Undying Lands yet Gimli can. Not quite! Regarding Gimli, the end of appendix A is very careful: Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book. We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter. Also the end of appendix B has only "with him, it is said, went Gimli the dwarf" - even his embarking is a mere rumor, and nothing is said of his arriving there. The same thing goes for Sam: 1482... On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers. Once again, there is only a family tradition that he Sam left for he Havens. Of course, they can say no more. The whole notion of going to the Undying Lands is well established in the published appendices. Well, I've cited the sources. I think they are purposedly ambiguous, and also that therein lies their beauty. A last thing which needs mentioning is the whole idea of being sent over the Sea as a holy mode of dying, one which Tolkien took very seriously in his retelling of the legend of King_Sheave - to which he returned twice, both in The Lost Road and in The Notion Club Papers.
"In the morning Bilbo misses breakfast. – is this the most unbelievable part of this chapter?" - Elven The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for a somewhat less clever discussion of Queer Lodgings!
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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DemoElite
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Aug 18 2012, 3:34pm
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well
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 3:39pm
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Christopher Tolkien has every right to hate the films
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 3:40pm
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Wasn't something written that Christopher Refused to see Any of it.
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Bombadil
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Aug 18 2012, 3:44pm
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Yes, he has
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Solicitr
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Sep 5 2012, 5:15pm
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As far as I know
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macfalk
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Aug 18 2012, 3:45pm
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In a recent interview
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 3:49pm
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Source?
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macfalk
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Aug 18 2012, 3:51pm
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See this thread
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 3:54pm
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Le Monde
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 3:57pm
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From July of this year in Le Monde
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 3:59pm
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LOL... I respect CT, I do, but I find his opinion rather myopic!
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 4:04pm
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We are all 20 at heart.//
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Kangi Ska
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Aug 19 2012, 1:50am
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*nods knowingly* This is something
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grammaboodawg
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Aug 19 2012, 1:24pm
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You're not being minimized and ignored
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 19 2012, 4:16pm
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Validation
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 4:27pm
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The issue isn't liking vs. not liking in this case.
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Elizabeth
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Aug 19 2012, 6:50pm
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*high five* Yeppers :)
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grammaboodawg
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Aug 19 2012, 10:37pm
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Well...
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grammaboodawg
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Aug 19 2012, 10:42pm
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Did C. Tolkien say it was aimed at young males?
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imin
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Aug 19 2012, 11:46pm
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That that I'm aware of.
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grammaboodawg
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Aug 20 2012, 1:55am
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Oh ok
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imin
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Aug 20 2012, 7:44am
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No.
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geordie
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Aug 20 2012, 6:11am
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Can somebody say...
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Patty
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Aug 20 2012, 3:39pm
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It seems to me
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 20 2012, 4:01pm
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A decent number...
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Patty
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Aug 20 2012, 6:28pm
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Why would that cause me offense?
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 20 2012, 7:27pm
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I find that quote highly amusing.
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Beutlin
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Aug 18 2012, 4:33pm
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amusing comment
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:43pm
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Source
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JWPlatt
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Aug 18 2012, 5:11pm
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Great conversation...
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DemoElite
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Aug 18 2012, 5:41pm
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hmmm
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 5:49pm
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We're looking at this the wrong way
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 6:09pm
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I half agree with you!
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 3:49pm
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well
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:01pm
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He doesn't "understand many things"
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:03pm
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Shelob
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:24pm
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I don't mind criticism of C. Tolkien at all
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:37pm
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sh
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:50pm
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:03pm
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Well, not *all* of JRR Tolkien's family are "protective" of his works to the point of disliking the films
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 4:02pm
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Does this imply
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:03pm
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In the context I used "supercool", yes B-)
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 4:07pm
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You've met Royd!
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:09pm
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No, I haven't met him in person
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 4:15pm
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Quite a few of us have.
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Elizabeth
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Aug 18 2012, 10:14pm
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But that's unfair
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:12pm
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Well, Peter Jackson did approach the TE back in the day
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 4:22pm
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C.Tolkien is very set in his ways and opinions
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:28pm
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well
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:32pm
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Ifs and buts
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:45pm
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danielb
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:53pm
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Most old guys I know of are that way...//
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Maiarmike
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Aug 18 2012, 6:17pm
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Careful - I may resemble that comment :)
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jschomburg
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Aug 20 2012, 8:32pm
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Ah, yes, I agree Earl.
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:06pm
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I think the article did a fine job of explaining, in brief, what protect means (And thank you DanielB for the link)
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 4:59pm
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Eh, they wouldn't of even had the conversation if it weren't for the movie
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 5:07pm
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That person continued to argue even without facts.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 5:58pm
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Having just come from math class...
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 8:01pm
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if I may say so
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 8:10pm
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My experience is exactly the opposite
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 8:18pm
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Also it's my view that
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 5:08pm
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I suppose I'm in the fortunate position on this of not giving two hoots.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 5:19pm
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Fortunate indeed.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 5:35pm
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Well conflicts arise for all sorts of reasons.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 5:49pm
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Well there is different. . . and then there is plain wrong.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 6:05pm
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It's a different telling of the tale.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 6:13pm
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That is pretty much my belief too
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 6:21pm
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Well, that explains alot
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 6:47pm
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No, no, now I'll have to put the tin hat on that one.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 7:15pm
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If the film is the child
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 7:51pm
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No no
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 8:00pm
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I agree. Wouldn't a good example of this be the tale of King Arthur and Merlin?
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 8:08pm
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Well, the work is the child, and the film is the child altered
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 8:09pm
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How is a story like a child?
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 8:44pm
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You made the original child analogy.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 9:30pm
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I agree with almost all the steps of this
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 9:52pm
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Bah and humbug. The Author's account is the true one,
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 6:26pm
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Haha have you ever considered starting a religion? Old L.Ron did ok out it. NT
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 6:29pm
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lol
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm
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He plays the ranger handing out spears before the attack on Osgiliath if I remember rightly?
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Seaber
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Aug 18 2012, 8:41pm
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Royd played a ranger
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geordie
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Aug 18 2012, 9:04pm
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Here's BBC's interview with Royd from 2003
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Earl
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Aug 19 2012, 8:01am
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*sighs smiling* He even went beyond cameos and after parties.
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grammaboodawg
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Aug 19 2012, 12:41pm
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Thanks gramma for confirming that Royd's really a supercool person B-) //
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Earl
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Aug 19 2012, 2:41pm
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Bizarro ShelobAppetite
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 3:54pm
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From C.Tolkien's perspective
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 3:55pm
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well
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:06pm
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Of course Martin and Rowling etc. have a different attitude.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 5:05pm
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ainur
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 5:17pm
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I can understand why Christopher wouldn't agree to a meeting.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 5:37pm
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well i just think its a pity
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 6:17pm
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I can still understand Christopher not wanting to meet.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 6:38pm
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Kreacher was in the movies solely because JK said he had to be there.
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Ataahua
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Aug 18 2012, 9:32pm
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Probably not. Only because...
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Dlanor da Great
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Aug 18 2012, 10:21pm
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What's so Bizarro about it?
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:01pm
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well
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:02pm
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This seems a little obnoxious as an assertion
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 4:10pm
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hmm
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:30pm
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Ah, bizzaro.
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 5:30pm
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yes
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 5:33pm
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I'm sorry
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rings7
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Aug 18 2012, 9:10pm
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I think the films
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 9:11pm
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Ok
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rings7
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Aug 18 2012, 9:15pm
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Not necessarily
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 9:21pm
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It would have been nice if The Tolkiens had been allowed at least some
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 4:28pm
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I wouldn't say the HP films are any more faithful than the LOTR films
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:31pm
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As I said above
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Earl
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Aug 18 2012, 4:34pm
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I agree, very sad.
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macfalk
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Aug 18 2012, 4:38pm
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If
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:44pm
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And Heavenly Creatures...
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macfalk
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Aug 18 2012, 4:47pm
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JRR Tolkien was not your father
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 4:52pm
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well
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Lusitano
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Aug 18 2012, 4:56pm
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Yes, I have to agree
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 4:58pm
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I may be wrong here but...
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Spaldron
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Aug 18 2012, 5:31pm
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well
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 5:38pm
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Tolkien sold the rights years ago...
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Spaldron
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Aug 18 2012, 5:52pm
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without wishing to start an argument
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 5:58pm
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"Don't Confuse Me With The Facts!"
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JWPlatt
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Aug 18 2012, 6:06pm
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Indeed
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Phibbus
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Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm
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The Tolkien Trust
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Elizabeth
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Aug 18 2012, 10:33pm
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No quite what I meant
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Spaldron
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Aug 18 2012, 6:53pm
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Worse
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JWPlatt
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Aug 18 2012, 9:55pm
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Sorry but...
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Spaldron
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Aug 19 2012, 1:08am
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I feel like Harry Potter analogies aren't going to get you anywhere.
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GoodGuyA
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Aug 19 2012, 1:59am
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This
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macfalk
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Aug 19 2012, 9:05am
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But...
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Silverlode
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Aug 19 2012, 10:19am
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*mods up*//
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
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Aug 19 2012, 3:06pm
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Mods up, too.//
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 3:22pm
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Silverlode's post should be pretty much the last word on this thread.
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RosieLass
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Aug 20 2012, 4:11am
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Amen, Rosie
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 20 2012, 5:51am
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Exactly! //
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geordie
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Aug 20 2012, 6:12am
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Not quite exact.
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sador
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Aug 20 2012, 7:06am
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Christopher Tolkien was actively involved in the creation of LOTR, too.
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RosieLass
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Aug 20 2012, 8:04pm
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Further to Rosie's post: here's a link
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geordie
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Aug 20 2012, 8:12pm
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Hush Money
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 3:29pm
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What I find quite amusing here...
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Spaldron
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Aug 19 2012, 4:38pm
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Who said CT is above criticism?
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 19 2012, 4:41pm
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CTs comments unwise
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macfalk
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Aug 19 2012, 5:36pm
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*whispers...
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 5:45pm
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Single Dream
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 5:59pm
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Oops.
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Spaldron
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Aug 19 2012, 6:03pm
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Due Diligence
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 6:12pm
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Yes, it's misleading, isn't it?
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 6:39pm
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Single Dream...
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 6:52pm
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I think the makers of the EE probably got it from a quotes site
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 7:09pm
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The net is like a petri dish - everything grows well in it
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Magpie
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Aug 19 2012, 7:38pm
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As can be seen -
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 8:12pm
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Here's another one -
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 6:49pm
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Loosely based on a passage or two by Tolkien...
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Otaku-sempai
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Aug 19 2012, 6:54pm
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Actually, I can't put my finger on what those passages might be -
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 7:11pm
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Specifically?
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Otaku-sempai
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Aug 19 2012, 7:25pm
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Ah, thanks for that -
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 7:46pm
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Psst geordie...
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sador
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Aug 20 2012, 7:09am
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He is not
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ElendilTheShort
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Aug 20 2012, 7:59am
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Let's have a look...
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geordie
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Aug 20 2012, 5:02pm
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"Then it was late in coming"
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sador
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Aug 21 2012, 12:45pm
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Ingrates?
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JWPlatt
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Aug 21 2012, 2:42pm
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Well, the Valar have a history of mucking things up...
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Morthoron
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Aug 21 2012, 4:45pm
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If he only had a vision
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ElendilTheShort
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Aug 22 2012, 2:15am
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nice commentary
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DemoElite
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Aug 22 2012, 2:44am
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This is a complicated question
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sador
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Aug 22 2012, 7:52am
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i have never read it as such
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imin
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Aug 22 2012, 8:11am
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Read 154
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ElendilTheShort
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Aug 22 2012, 7:35am
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"supposed" is a very strong qualifier
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sador
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Aug 22 2012, 7:59am
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For myself
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ElendilTheShort
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Aug 22 2012, 8:52am
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I will say
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ElendilTheShort
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Aug 22 2012, 9:20am
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Literary Cowardice
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JWPlatt
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Aug 22 2012, 4:06pm
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Far green country
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Zubeneschamali
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Aug 20 2012, 9:57am
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Well that rather depends
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 20 2012, 12:18pm
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I'm with you on this
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Phibbus
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Aug 20 2012, 12:46pm
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Well, there are Frodo's verses...
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Otaku-sempai
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Aug 20 2012, 7:56pm
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LOL! Yes, those are the lyrics to the Rankin-Bass "Hobbit" theme song!
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dernwyn
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Aug 19 2012, 7:55pm
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It's pret-ty banal, isn't it?
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 8:51pm
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Here's another one, from the same page -
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 9:04pm
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Are you referring to..?
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Gwytha
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Aug 19 2012, 9:18pm
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Yes, that's it. :-) //
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 9:52pm
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Your reasoning is flawed...
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Otaku-sempai
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Aug 19 2012, 6:00pm
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Profits
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 6:10pm
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You misunderstand me.
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Otaku-sempai
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Aug 19 2012, 6:14pm
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Great points
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 8:45pm
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The Voice of Saruman and the Call of Mammon
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Finrod
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Aug 18 2012, 7:37pm
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I'd be happy to respond...
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Spaldron
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Aug 19 2012, 12:38am
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I agree with both your latest posts
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geordie
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Aug 18 2012, 6:17pm
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LOTR is not a book for Adolescents. Neither is The Hobbit, per se, but from a different angle
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 5:55pm
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I've always viewed him as largely ungrateful.
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Maiarmike
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Aug 18 2012, 6:24pm
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Maybe he thinks respect for his father's life-work is more important than money. //
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RosieLass
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Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm
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Hence, my first mention being about all that Jackson has done to further Tolkien's influence...
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Maiarmike
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Aug 18 2012, 7:12pm
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was that to me?
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 7:13pm
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No, my response was to RosieLass.
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Maiarmike
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Aug 18 2012, 7:15pm
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I did not twist anything.
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RosieLass
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Aug 18 2012, 9:38pm
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You think PJ created an intelligent and respectful version of the story
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 8:51pm
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You know, it is a funny thing, but some people would rather
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 6:40pm
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That's right -
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geordie
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Aug 18 2012, 6:49pm
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Here here.
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Spaldron
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Aug 18 2012, 6:56pm
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Well in that case
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Lindele
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Aug 18 2012, 6:59pm
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but
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Wandering Ranger
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Aug 18 2012, 7:10pm
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Success Stories
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JWPlatt
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Aug 18 2012, 4:38pm
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Doesn't really matter
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 4:44pm
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Perfectly put.//
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Gorbag
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Aug 18 2012, 7:33pm
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Christopher Tolkien is simply too close to the source material
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sycorax82
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Aug 18 2012, 8:39pm
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The funny thing about this stat
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 8:56pm
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I'll pitch it to my superviser in my next meeting with him
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 9:06pm
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Couldn't agree more.//
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geordie
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Aug 18 2012, 9:07pm
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I said it strengthens my argument...
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 9:07pm
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Yet how many more people will see the movies without picking up the books?
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 18 2012, 9:23pm
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Right, and people often ignore the question...
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 9:26pm
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Sort of moot
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Phibbus
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Aug 18 2012, 9:40pm
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That's interesting.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 18 2012, 10:01pm
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I read the book on recommendation from my Mum and sister
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 9:44pm
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Why? Do the people who don't read the books live in a social vacuum?
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Tim
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Aug 18 2012, 9:44pm
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ROTK won an Academy Award for Best picture...
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DemoElite
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Aug 18 2012, 10:10pm
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To many people, the Oscars mean nothing
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 10:15pm
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Agreed about the oscars...
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DemoElite
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Aug 18 2012, 10:23pm
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LOTR was not good film especially in terms of quality...
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Tigero
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Aug 19 2012, 7:30am
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I don't think it makes them bad films
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DanielLB
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Aug 19 2012, 7:42am
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Yes it still has parts that would deserve an oscar on their own
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Tigero
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Aug 19 2012, 9:42am
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I never said it was a terrible movie. I am personally rather fond of it. So much so
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 19 2012, 5:29am
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From past experience...
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Morthoron
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Aug 18 2012, 9:26pm
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Couldn't agree more! /
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 9:04pm
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Oh, I bet you could!
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 18 2012, 9:07pm
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I could? /
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DanielLB
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Aug 18 2012, 9:09pm
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I am shocked by some people's views on here
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imin
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Aug 18 2012, 10:19pm
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Im more shocked that....
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Dlanor da Great
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Aug 18 2012, 10:38pm
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Well said.
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DesiringDragons
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Aug 19 2012, 2:56pm
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Amen
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 19 2012, 4:19pm
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The Oscar and BAFTA winning screenplay which
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 19 2012, 4:24pm
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Yes
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 19 2012, 4:38pm
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I bet you're a Razzie man
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DanielLB
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Aug 19 2012, 4:43pm
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Well not quite
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 19 2012, 5:32pm
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Well, that's because I find it very tiresome
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 19 2012, 8:09pm
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Well said
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geordie
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Aug 19 2012, 8:19pm
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Maybe it's the brevity
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 19 2012, 8:25pm
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Brevity
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 19 2012, 8:40pm
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If you had said this...
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Spaldron
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Aug 20 2012, 12:07am
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Writers
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JWPlatt
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Aug 19 2012, 4:45pm
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People want different things.
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Escapist
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Aug 19 2012, 5:10pm
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I'm not sure the audience felt they were damned.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Aug 19 2012, 5:34pm
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I concur, JW...
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Morthoron
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Aug 19 2012, 6:16pm
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I cannot do much other than bow my acknowledgent of the general accuracy of this post
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 19 2012, 8:01pm
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Very well said, JWplatt
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 19 2012, 7:54pm
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Zimmerman treatment retread
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Solicitr
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Sep 5 2012, 5:34pm
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Nature
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JWPlatt
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Sep 5 2012, 5:57pm
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The opinion of CT matters.
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Escapist
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Aug 19 2012, 5:19pm
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I'm sure it wasn't a ploy
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Gwytha
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Aug 19 2012, 8:28pm
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