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Lurker in the Dark
The Shire
Aug 5 2012, 3:06am
Views: 806
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When I first heard that PJ was intending to make two films of the Hobbit I couldn't see how it could be done, at least without producing something aimed at fans who can never get enough while alienating everyone else with a slow and indulgent fairy tale. On the other hand there's certainly a lot else going on in Middle Earth at the same time but making the quest of the Hobbit dramatically central to those events poses story-telling challenges. The original poster certainly shows what's there and available but except for die-hard fans it isn't relevant to the quest itself. Moreover the poster doesn't touch on what are, for me, two major elements the Hobbit is going to have to deal with to succeed. 1. Why does Gandalf choose Bilbo the Hobbit to be the burglar? Tolkien never explains this, that I'm aware of. Moreover had it not been for Bilbo's purely fortuitous finding of the Ring and the trick of invisibility it gives him, allowing him to actually succeed in his 'job' as burglar, is it really likely Bilbo would have pulled it off? Certainly Gandalf does not know Bilbo is going to find the Ring, as even at the beginning of LotR he still doesn't know what it is Bilbo found. To me this can only be 'pulled together' if Gandalf in the Hobbit is setting up the conditions for a fulfilment of prophecy - a prophecy dealing not so much with with Smaug and the Dwarves return to Erebor but Frodo's quest to destroy the Ring, defeat Sauron and end the Third Age. After all, for Middle Earth history and LotR by far the most significant event of the Hobbit is the finding of the One Ring although in the book itself this is a relatively underplayed event. Unfortunately 'Prophecy' as a device does not feature much in Tolkien's writings - IMHO the closest we get to it in LotR is the Mirror of Galadriel, while Elrond's many visions of the possible future most of which showed Sauron's victory and Arwen/Aragorn unconsummated are a PJ addition . In 'Fellowship' Gandalf tells Frodo that he was 'meant' to have the Ring but I believe that's also a PJ addition, not in the original. However it must be significant that in LotR Frodo's quest only succeeds because, perhaps alone of the denzins of Middle Earth, a Hobbit was the only race or culture which would have let Gollum live, while in the Hobbit the Ring was won not by an act of violence - the only time it isn't - but in a Hobbitish riddle game (tho' in truth Bilbo's winning question would have been ruled out of order in most quizzes, hence the ring was won by a cheat.). Hence I think it inescapable that for some reason Gandalf becomes aware that the fate of the world depends on a Hobbit going on Thorin's quest. The how and why of it he doesn't know, and he doesn't even make sense of it when Bilbo returns. However the ultimate defeat of Sauron 'requires' that the One Ring come into the possession of the Hobbits in such a way that Gollum survives the initial encounter - and any another race coming across Gollum as Bilbo did would just have killed him and taken the Ring . This can be done because of some 'foresight' by Galadriel that 'the world is poised in balance on Erebor's peak and the smallest must become great to prevent it's fall' but which must obviously not be too explicit forcing Gandalf to 'take a punt' that it means a Hobbit has to go with Thorin on his quest. But then why Bilbo of all the Hobbits? However all this will need to be established at some point, by showing Galadriel's 'revelation', her discussing it with Gandalf and Gandalf's speculation as to what it means and requires. 2. Tauriel. PJ knows the story/film needs a romance - and in a major way. LotR without Arwen would just be a "Boy's Own" adventure. So we have Tauriel and... who? From what we know of the cast only Bard currently fits this role, Legolas being ruled out apparently. PJ won't repeat the Aragon/Arwen plot yet the tensions of elf/human romance are surely too powerful not to pursue, which leaves? Beren and Luthien, of course. So will we have Tolkien's wonderful Beren/Luthien story echoed in Bard/Tauriel? (Beren/Bard Tinuviel/Tauriel?) There would be plenty of scope for echoes of Beren/Luthien's quest for the Silmaril in the Hobbit story - the Necromancer and Smaug etc. - so my money's on it. However to be a romance in a major way it needs to arc across all three films, which means we need to have met both characters before the end of film one. This is not a problem for Tauriel who we'll meet in Mirkwood, but Bard = Laketown which we aren't likely to get to until film two so my money's on Bard being in Mirkwood where he sees Tinuviel dancing in a glade a'la Beren, and on them both becoming involved in the quest.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Greenbooks guest post: in defense of a Hobbit trilogy
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News from Bree
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Aug 3 2012, 9:33pm
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Excellent write-up...
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Maiarmike
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Aug 4 2012, 4:29am
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Seems perfect
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JayFank
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Aug 4 2012, 4:06pm
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EXCELLENT
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Buchanicus
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Aug 4 2012, 5:32am
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Excellent Article!
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Istaris'staffs
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Aug 4 2012, 5:58am
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The is great!
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 8:21am
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Wow!
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TheBeerBaron
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Aug 4 2012, 9:03am
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Jackson should hire this guy
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guitarzankansasfan
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Aug 4 2012, 9:48am
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Where can I find more
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TheBeerBaron
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Aug 4 2012, 10:27am
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Congratulations! This is by far the best post/article I've ever read on TORn
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kiwifan
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Aug 4 2012, 11:23am
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I have to disagree...
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Spaldron
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Aug 4 2012, 12:53pm
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But LOTR movie Bilbo has no connection with dwarves at all.
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Plurmo
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Aug 5 2012, 4:21am
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This is amazing.
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DesiringDragons
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Aug 4 2012, 1:04pm
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If they include the events of the War in the North -
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Hanzkaz
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Aug 4 2012, 1:06pm
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No ... just no ... ;-)
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 1:09pm
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I agree that there is enough for 4 movies.
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Escapist
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Aug 4 2012, 2:08pm
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Sorry - this article was so exciting
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Escapist
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Aug 4 2012, 2:13pm
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I do believe that Warner Brothers only has the rights to make three movies.
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Kangi Ska
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Aug 4 2012, 2:29pm
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Not so
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 4 2012, 2:50pm
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Thanks VF
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Kangi Ska
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Aug 4 2012, 3:09pm
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He said that about The Hobbit
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 3:11pm
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I would be shocked if Jackson directed any further Middle-earth films after this
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 4 2012, 3:12pm
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I can't imagine more films after this either.
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 3:22pm
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I wonder what other work of Tolkien's could successfully be adapted to film...?
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Captain Salt
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Aug 4 2012, 4:18pm
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Going by the Appendices -
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Hanzkaz
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Aug 4 2012, 4:51pm
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Would love to see a story dealing with the explored regions of ME...
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Captain Salt
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Aug 4 2012, 5:11pm
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I'd prefer a brief reference to the war in the north be included in the existing films than that a stand-alone film be made
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Bladerunner
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Aug 4 2012, 5:23pm
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Wasn't me (assuming you mean me, and not another Daniel).
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 5:45pm
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Certain Amount Of Tme
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JWPlatt
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Aug 4 2012, 5:10pm
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Answer and perhaps another conspiracy theory
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SirDennisC
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Aug 4 2012, 5:30pm
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Ack! That's twice today I've spelled "rationale" as "rational"
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SirDennisC
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Aug 4 2012, 5:47pm
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A good question
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 4 2012, 6:02pm
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LOL.
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Silverlode
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Aug 4 2012, 6:06pm
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Doesn't it strictly forbid the use of the character Glorfindel
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Kangi Ska
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Aug 4 2012, 6:43pm
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LOL II
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JWPlatt
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Aug 4 2012, 6:56pm
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At your own risk
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 4 2012, 6:59pm
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Desolation of Smaug
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Sunflower
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Aug 5 2012, 4:56am
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Bravo! I'm sold! Let me count the ways.
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
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Aug 4 2012, 1:47pm
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I hope it convinces others as well
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 2:04pm
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Um.... What?
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GoodGuyA
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Aug 4 2012, 2:03pm
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See this thread
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 2:09pm
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I still doubt it's Gimli. Love his voice though!
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GoodGuyA
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Aug 4 2012, 2:11pm
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Whether it is a physical role or just a voice cameo
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 2:12pm
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As a matter of preference,
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Escapist
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Aug 4 2012, 2:20pm
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Brilliant speculation! I hope the actual films are close to this as it
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Eruonen
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Aug 4 2012, 2:57pm
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Well done
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Black Breathalizer
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Aug 4 2012, 3:20pm
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In all of this I hope that "The Hobbit" does not get lost.
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Kangi Ska
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Aug 4 2012, 3:45pm
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It could, or it could enhance both trilogies into one continuous story.
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Silverlode
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Aug 4 2012, 7:09pm
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Agree completely with this Silverlode
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 7:22pm
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Looking at it...
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Silverlode
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Aug 4 2012, 7:41pm
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I thought it might be interesting -
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Hanzkaz
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Aug 4 2012, 7:26pm
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This is brilliant speculation
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 4 2012, 7:47pm
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The "quiet bits"
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Silverlode
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Aug 4 2012, 8:26pm
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Again well-written article, however
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Captain Salt
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Aug 4 2012, 3:50pm
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Since it's been described as a third Hobbit film
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DanielLB
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Aug 4 2012, 4:14pm
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The strength of the proposal
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SirDennisC
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Aug 4 2012, 4:50pm
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"Killed by pirates is good" ;)
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DesiringDragons
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Aug 4 2012, 5:19pm
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That was the same point I was making in a previous post....
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Bladerunner
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Aug 4 2012, 5:34pm
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Apologies for having missed that.
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DesiringDragons
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Aug 4 2012, 5:38pm
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Well if film 2 is to focus on Smaug
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SirDennisC
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Aug 4 2012, 5:42pm
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Only if they're "man-in-suit" --
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SirDennisC
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Aug 4 2012, 7:52pm
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Two Disagreements....
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Bladerunner
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Aug 4 2012, 4:50pm
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I don't want Sauron to be at the Battle of Five Armies
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Hanzkaz
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Aug 4 2012, 4:57pm
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I'd prefer that the killings of the Azog, the Great Goblin, and Smaug would be enough motivation for teh Goblins and Wargs....
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Bladerunner
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Aug 4 2012, 5:13pm
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I wouldn't be surprised if Azog and his crew -
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Hanzkaz
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Aug 4 2012, 5:18pm
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Back when Benedict Cumberbatch
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Silverlode
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Aug 4 2012, 5:39pm
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I like that approach also...
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Bladerunner
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Aug 4 2012, 5:57pm
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A third film's impact on Film 2
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Black Breathalizer
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Aug 4 2012, 5:19pm
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That third film still seems like a drag
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HiddenSpring
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Aug 4 2012, 8:24pm
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Film 3 will likely include more than BOFA, IMO
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 4 2012, 8:31pm
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Film 3 has other key events....
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Bladerunner
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Aug 4 2012, 10:21pm
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Good article
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Yngwulff
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Aug 4 2012, 10:25pm
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Contents
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Lurker in the Dark
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Aug 5 2012, 3:06am
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Film 2
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Yngwulff
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Aug 5 2012, 3:22am
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Interesting theory about Bard and Tauriel...
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SirDennisC
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Aug 5 2012, 3:24am
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Isn't Bard married?
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Yngwulff
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Aug 5 2012, 3:30am
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Ah yes, but no (living) wife as far as I've heard
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SirDennisC
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Aug 5 2012, 3:35am
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Could imply
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Yngwulff
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Aug 5 2012, 3:40am
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Contents
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Lurker in the Dark
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Aug 5 2012, 7:20am
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Why Gandalf chose Bilbo *SPOILER - COMIC CON FOOTAGE*
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Kassandros
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Aug 6 2012, 4:35pm
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Frodo being meant to have the Ring..
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Silverlode
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Aug 5 2012, 4:04am
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Unless Kili is revealed to be half-elven...
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SirDennisC
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Aug 5 2012, 4:24am
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*snort* Well at least...
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Silverlode
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Aug 5 2012, 4:33am
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I just had a terrible thought...
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TheBeerBaron
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Aug 6 2012, 6:51am
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Tauriel and Kili
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DanielLB
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Aug 6 2012, 7:14am
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I thought we figured that was in jest
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TheBeerBaron
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Aug 6 2012, 7:19am
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It's more real
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DanielLB
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Aug 6 2012, 7:32am
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Thanks DLB
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TheBeerBaron
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Aug 6 2012, 7:35am
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Highly improbable
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 6 2012, 3:27pm
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Prophecy and Tauriel
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Phibbus
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Aug 5 2012, 4:05am
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Tauriel
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Lurker in the Dark
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Aug 5 2012, 7:45am
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Gandalf picking Bilbo
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BeornBerserker
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Aug 5 2012, 4:29am
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Nonsense
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 5 2012, 5:36am
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Tauriel and Bard
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innoce77
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Aug 6 2012, 8:33am
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Welcome out of lurkerdom innoce77
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SirDennisC
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Aug 6 2012, 5:16pm
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Divinely inspired
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Black Breathalizer
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Aug 6 2012, 8:24pm
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Amen
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 6 2012, 11:11pm
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yes
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Lusitano
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Aug 7 2012, 1:24am
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Love. lol
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 7 2012, 2:56am
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Prophecy appears in several places, most notably from Gandalf and Glorfindel, actually
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AinurOlorin
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Aug 6 2012, 2:20pm
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Still not sure about that third film...
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Phibbus
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Aug 5 2012, 3:17am
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Hee hee
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SirDennisC
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Aug 5 2012, 3:32am
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Lucasian Structure
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JWPlatt
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Aug 5 2012, 4:39am
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*heh* I can't complain
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
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Aug 5 2012, 4:56am
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Personal Canon
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JWPlatt
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Aug 5 2012, 5:11am
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Unconscious Bilbo
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Phibbus
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Aug 5 2012, 5:06am
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But is it a good idea
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 5 2012, 5:42am
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The structure yes
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SirDennisC
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Aug 5 2012, 7:06am
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Makes sense
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Aug 5 2012, 5:15pm
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Are you messing with me?
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SirDennisC
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Aug 5 2012, 10:09pm
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I'll give you a big "Amen!" for that last paragraph.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
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Aug 5 2012, 4:38am
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I feel like I'm the odd man out on this.
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redgiraffe
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Aug 13 2012, 11:16am
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