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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Mar 31 2012, 7:21pm
Views: 5172
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I'm just saying how I interpretate things. You are the one presenting what you say as facts. So it is not me who has to come with proof, but you. I have simply been trying to dispel the myth that has come up in this thread that what Tolkien wrote in letter 210 about demonic force meant that the WKing had specifically been given enhanced powers by Sauron that would help in combat, in this case bought about by how this scene differed from book to movie. I am quoting Tolkiens work himself so I do not see how it could be wrong. You yourself implied in your original post to me that what I was sayibg was at odds with what Tolkien wrote and I have offered up my side of the argument with textual evidence not just my interpretation. I would not argue against your interpretation as that is your right to interpret things however you want. I am just saying I am not aware of any textual evidence to support it and I think you took my asking this as a personal attack where it was a genuine request because I enjoy discovering more about Tolkien. The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force". How do you know what Tolkien 'intended'? I do not "know" with any certainty any more than anyone else can know, and I certainly "know" a lot less than many people who have studied his works for decades, but what I am trying to exhibit as knowledge is based on compiling what I have read on the matter into a reasonable discusdion. For example if Tolkien had intended the WKing's added demonic force to have helped him in combat against Gandalf or others we would have seen it, but once again reiterating my earlier point, those who could withstand the fear he generated were able to stand up to him. The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books[/eply] I do not think it is stated explicitly in the books that it was (only) his ability to cause fear that got increased. Where does it say that? I have partially answered that above, but I would ask you once again, where in the books does it say other than what I have stated. People, yourself included are using the term demonic force as an open interpretation where I am saying Tolkiens writing in no way supports this in that there is no evidence that the WKings added demonic force helped him in any way in direct combat against those who could stand up to fis well documented power of fear. So please feel free to interpret his work however you want but don't tell me that Tolkiens work would suggest other than what I have written without textual proof to support it because your interpretaion is not valid as an argument in such context. If everying is left up to peoples interpretation then we do end up with the WKing easily besting Gandalf when he was not likely to be capable of such a thing and we also end up with 30 foot tall balrogs when Tolkiens latest writing on the matter had Balrogs as being only about 6 to 6 and a half feet tall. I would actually be happy if you prove me wrong with textual evidence because it would mean I am learning more. I do not disrespect you or your opinion but the context of the discussion has to have some defining boundaries otherwise it becomes all about opinion or interpretation and less about what Tolkien wrote, and although he is no longer with us and we do have to fill some of the gaps ourselves I think in this case interpreting this one line about demonic force in letter 210 to mean that all of a sudden the WKing had many more powers at his disposal to defeat Gandalf is incorrect as there is absolutely no other evidence to support this opinion that I know of, so if there is evidence out there I would like to bemade aware of it.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Ring Wraiths
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 17 2012, 4:27pm
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Nope
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DanielLB
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Mar 17 2012, 5:17pm
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If only the men of Gondor knew this //
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QuackingTroll
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Mar 19 2012, 11:36pm
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Yes, does seem strange doesn't it
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 11:38pm
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I Have A Question
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 20 2012, 4:46am
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Don't forget, he was also slain pretty easy after loosing the ring
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QuackingTroll
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Mar 20 2012, 1:32pm
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Not that simple, IMO
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Mar 20 2012, 5:50am
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Yes
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DanielLB
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Mar 20 2012, 7:46am
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"Fire is our friend IN THE WILDERNESS"
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QuackingTroll
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Mar 20 2012, 1:36pm
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I don't think anyone could have killed the Witch King...
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Asger
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Mar 20 2012, 6:19pm
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When do you think the witch king was at the height of his powers?/
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imin
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Mar 20 2012, 6:56pm
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Movie Wise It Was Against Gandalf In The ROTK EE
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 20 2012, 7:23pm
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i think
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imin
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Mar 20 2012, 7:50pm
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Actually Id Prefer
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 20 2012, 7:55pm
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When do you think WK was at the height?
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Asger
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Mar 20 2012, 9:52pm
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So it is Gandalf that predicted the end of the world in 2012?!?!
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DanielLB
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Mar 20 2012, 9:57pm
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It was merry's sword
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imin
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Mar 20 2012, 10:36pm
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Not sure that makes sense
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DanielLB
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Mar 20 2012, 7:06pm
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I assumed
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DanielLB
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Mar 20 2012, 6:33pm
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And they're not in kill mode at Weathertop.
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RosieLass
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Mar 26 2012, 6:38am
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Wraiths and fear
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 28 2012, 10:19am
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Erm...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 29 2012, 6:04pm
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Fear was their weapon
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 30 2012, 8:33am
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Well...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 30 2012, 11:32am
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Power at Pelennor
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 30 2012, 6:55pm
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No.
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 31 2012, 6:34am
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Proof vs interpretation
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 31 2012, 7:21pm
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You say it's interpretation vs proof...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 31 2012, 7:31pm
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Context of reply
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 31 2012, 7:43pm
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Yes...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 31 2012, 8:10pm
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Written evidence
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 31 2012, 8:43pm
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Those statements...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 31 2012, 8:47pm
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No
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ElendilTheShort
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Mar 31 2012, 9:12pm
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Don't...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 31 2012, 9:19pm
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*readies bucket of ice water*
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Ataahua
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Mar 31 2012, 9:25pm
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for me the gandalf and ringwraith scene
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imin
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Mar 17 2012, 5:27pm
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Now you mention it, that scene was done poorly
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DanielLB
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Mar 17 2012, 5:31pm
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I Am Sure
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 17 2012, 9:24pm
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Wow, what a massive simplification...
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DanielLB
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Mar 17 2012, 9:41pm
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Well
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 17 2012, 9:59pm
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Sting, Glamdring and Orcrist
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DanielLB
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Mar 17 2012, 10:02pm
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the worst part is...
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Mooseboy018
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Mar 17 2012, 10:16pm
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ssssh
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DanielLB
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Mar 17 2012, 10:24pm
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Glorfindel makes the prophecy
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PattyJB
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Mar 18 2012, 5:18am
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Only just seen this
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 1:20pm
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Waxing and waning Wraiths
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Harold.of.Whoa
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Mar 17 2012, 6:47pm
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true
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imin
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Mar 17 2012, 7:13pm
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As To That
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 17 2012, 9:30pm
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i
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imin
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Mar 17 2012, 11:36pm
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In the EE Version Of FOTR
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 18 2012, 12:23am
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oh ok
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imin
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Mar 18 2012, 12:58am
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Merry's weapons in the movies
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Mooseboy018
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Mar 18 2012, 4:24am
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I Was Thinking
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 18 2012, 7:05am
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Aragorn would not of beaten the witch king
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imin
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Mar 18 2012, 9:28am
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A combination
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 9:50am
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I Think Nasil
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 18 2012, 1:02pm
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Narsil
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 1:12pm
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Also Consider
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 18 2012, 1:16pm
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Yes, theoretically, anyone could have killed the Witch-King after Merry used his Noldor blade. /
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 1:18pm
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noldor blade or dunedain?
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imin
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Mar 18 2012, 1:27pm
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Noldor Blade
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 18 2012, 1:28pm
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Sorry, I meant Numenor, as my previous posts. And this is referring the books. The films mess it up a bit /
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 1:43pm
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Well I Still Think He Stabbed Him With The Elf Dagger
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TheGoblinKing
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Mar 18 2012, 1:58pm
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Definitely not his elf dagger
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 8:45am
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wow
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Magpie
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Mar 19 2012, 2:18pm
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Me neither!
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 3:08pm
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Hold on
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 3:23pm
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Apart from the horse on it!
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 3:25pm
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I can imagine an 'untold tale' about those blades from Aragorn
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Otaku-sempai
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Mar 19 2012, 5:08pm
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works for me! :-) //
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Magpie
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Mar 19 2012, 5:46pm
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I always like to think
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 11:15pm
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Hmmm I think the importance of gender comes across
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Mar 19 2012, 11:05pm
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Certainly
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 11:11pm
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Oh both play a role
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Mar 19 2012, 11:17pm
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I don't know
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 11:24pm
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Ah see I'm not so sure about that.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Mar 19 2012, 11:27pm
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Yeppidy yep
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DanielLB
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Mar 19 2012, 11:32pm
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Actually, not quite
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Mar 20 2012, 6:03am
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Theoretically
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DanielLB
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Mar 20 2012, 7:48am
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Aragorn
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imin
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Mar 18 2012, 1:21pm
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Twas behind his knee /
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 1:22pm
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back of leg behind his knee, same thing, haha//
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imin
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Mar 18 2012, 1:27pm
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I thought you said arm ;-) /
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 1:42pm
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This is a great difference Between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White.
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JohnsS29
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Mar 19 2012, 6:11am
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In addition...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 17 2012, 6:50pm
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super Witch King
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Mooseboy018
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Mar 17 2012, 10:18pm
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This letter?
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DanielLB
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Mar 17 2012, 10:22pm
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Witch King XL
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 18 2012, 12:00am
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letter 210 is what ur looking for//
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imin
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Mar 18 2012, 1:01am
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I suppose you're right...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 18 2012, 7:46am
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Will check it out. Thanks imin /
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DanielLB
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Mar 18 2012, 9:48am
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Not the one I was thinking of, but good find.
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Mooseboy018
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Mar 18 2012, 4:16am
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Don't forget...
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Jim
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Mar 20 2012, 11:42pm
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I agree...
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Ereinion Nénharma
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Mar 21 2012, 7:13am
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