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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jan 23 2012, 7:23pm
Views: 1635
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Yes, I agree, though this line
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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"His heart was filled and pierced with enchantment and with the desire of dwarves" seems to indicate that two forces were at work: The first I'll grant might be what is called "the dragon sickness." Something, some sort of spell, that can afflict anyone who gazes upon a dragon's hoard. The second, "the desire of dwarves" seems to be a pre-existing trait belonging to dwarves; not necessarily dependant on the existence of a dragon hoard. Given what else we know from the tale, the condition is likely pride, lust (for gold, though one wonders given that dwarf women are bearded...), and greed rolled into one. So it would be fair to say that even if it was not Thorin's prime motivation for reclaiming the treasure, as a pre-existing condition, that pride, lust and greed likely played a part. Even before observing the treasure. However, from sador's observations as well (unless I missed the context) Thorin had already spent time with at least part of the treasure. So either it carried a curse of its own (pre-Smaug), or the desire for it at any cost was endemic to dwarves (ie as any hoard would be)... or both. The fact that it was hoarded before Smaug appeared -- though was added to from neighbouring sources as he did -- is an important point here. The predisposition towards being greedy may indeed be, as sador also points out, a throw back to Tolkien's earlier (pre-Hobbit) ideas about dwarves, but that he ultimately intended to discard. (A notion I was only just made aware of here, thank you sador.) Still, I am reminded of the point dormouse has been making about the key descriptor "hoarded." The word does not simply imply the act of amassing a great treasure, but also implies that it is not shared or otherwise used to anyone's (including the hoarder's) benefit. Therefore greed, more so than pride even, is what Thorin laments in his final moments. Be that as it may, despite his many faults, ultimately I do not see Thorin as someone who is beyond redemption. Nor do I believe that he is much different (except in the details) from any other of Tolkien's complex characters, all who exhibit faults of their own. I guess the extent to which their flaws lead to their downfall (or not!) is something to be kept in mind while reading Tolkien. And yes, to your other recent post, this has been a robust discussion! I'm quite enjoying it and learning a lot in the process... thank you to isaac and all who have participated.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 23 2012, 7:26pm)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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plot hole?
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 21 2012, 3:41pm
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My guess is because it's a suicide mission...
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QuackingTroll
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Jan 21 2012, 3:46pm
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good one on the first
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 21 2012, 3:50pm
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It might have been the folly of greed
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SirDennisC
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Jan 21 2012, 3:53pm
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good one too
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 21 2012, 3:57pm
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That was my thought
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DanielLB
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Jan 21 2012, 3:57pm
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Huh?
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sador
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Jan 22 2012, 5:33pm
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Fair enough
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SirDennisC
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Jan 22 2012, 10:09pm
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Makes no sense.
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Elizabeth
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Jan 21 2012, 6:55pm
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Well Elizabeth, historically and traditionally, Dwarves had fought well against Dragons in battle.
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Xanaseb
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Jan 21 2012, 9:32pm
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Hmmm...
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sueb1863
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Jan 21 2012, 7:14pm
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I thought it was made clear
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ShireHorse
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Jan 21 2012, 8:51pm
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Precisely. yeah, I agree completely with you there.
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Xanaseb
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Jan 21 2012, 9:37pm
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Re lust or greed
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SirDennisC
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Jan 21 2012, 10:04pm
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I think you're right...
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dormouse
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Jan 21 2012, 11:20pm
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But the important part of that line
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 21 2012, 11:32pm
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not sure I agree with you about Lewis
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titanium_hobbit
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Jan 22 2012, 1:56am
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I'm not bashing
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 22 2012, 8:00am
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o.O
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SirDennisC
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Jan 22 2012, 2:13am
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I'm not so sure
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 22 2012, 7:53am
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Dragon-sickness and the bewilderment of gold.
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geordie
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Jan 22 2012, 11:15am
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Perhaps
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SirDennisC
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Jan 22 2012, 10:27pm
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Three relevant quotes:
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sador
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Jan 23 2012, 8:15am
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Those are 3 important quotes, sador,
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ShireHorse
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Jan 23 2012, 5:13pm
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Yes, I agree, though this line
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SirDennisC
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Jan 23 2012, 7:23pm
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thank you too Sir Dennis C and the rest
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 23 2012, 10:03pm
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I once made
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Jan 24 2012, 8:46am
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Yes! But a bit is missing
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sador
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Jan 24 2012, 8:51am
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i feel that could replace the presence of TORN
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 24 2012, 4:18pm
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No, I don't think so...
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dormouse
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Jan 22 2012, 8:53am
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Actually, I do think of Thorin
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ShireHorse
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Jan 22 2012, 2:19pm
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Well, yes, it's a good point...
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dormouse
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Jan 22 2012, 3:53pm
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Thorin did.
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sador
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Jan 22 2012, 5:20pm
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the problem of choose
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 22 2012, 10:40pm
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But the question is:
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 22 2012, 6:00pm
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Agreed 100%
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 21 2012, 10:10pm
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as much as people
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Sinister71
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Jan 21 2012, 10:32pm
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It may just be semantics
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 21 2012, 10:51pm
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I think that Thorin
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ShireHorse
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Jan 21 2012, 11:00pm
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That's another excellent point
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 21 2012, 11:12pm
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Pride, greed, and for that matter lust
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SirDennisC
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Jan 21 2012, 11:25pm
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I strongly disagree
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sador
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Jan 22 2012, 5:55pm
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Disagree with which part?
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SirDennisC
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Jan 22 2012, 9:50pm
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Thorin and his greed for me-SPOILERS-
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 22 2012, 10:03pm
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* (argh, what is it with chrome and linkies anyway?)
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SirDennisC
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Jan 23 2012, 3:45am
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Thank you, Sir Dennis,
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ShireHorse
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Jan 23 2012, 11:30am
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as a king
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 22 2012, 4:33am
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While your analysis is right
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sador
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Jan 22 2012, 5:51pm
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A-greed Agreed, get it?? LOL
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Xanaseb
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Jan 21 2012, 11:51pm
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lol
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 22 2012, 3:12pm
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No.
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sador
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Jan 22 2012, 5:35pm
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One does not simply walk into Erebor
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Alientraveller
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Jan 21 2012, 7:25pm
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I believe
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Sinister71
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Jan 21 2012, 9:42pm
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If you call this a plothole
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sador
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Jan 22 2012, 6:03pm
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i didnīt know Thorin did
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 22 2012, 10:18pm
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The Hobbit is the ultimate heist movie.
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Owain
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Jan 22 2012, 8:51pm
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It is rather
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Jan 22 2012, 9:17pm
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mission "impossible"
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 22 2012, 10:22pm
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Haha! Nice!//
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Owain
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Jan 22 2012, 10:23pm
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I do find it strange that we don't even hear about Dain
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Curious
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Jan 23 2012, 6:43pm
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Anger against the Iron Hills colony?
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Otaku-sempai
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Jan 23 2012, 7:50pm
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Yes.
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Darkstone
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Jan 23 2012, 8:05pm
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Oh, it can be rationalized.
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Curious
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Jan 23 2012, 11:05pm
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Hmmm
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SirDennisC
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Jan 23 2012, 11:29pm
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iīm with you here
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Jan 23 2012, 11:33pm
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Objectives of the quest
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TFP
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Jan 31 2012, 1:19pm
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We do; but without a name, and it doesn't amount to much:
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sador
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Jan 24 2012, 8:42am
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That doesn't even sound like the truth.
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Curious
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Jan 24 2012, 1:52pm
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Sure.
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sador
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Jan 24 2012, 3:09pm
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In re-reading Two Towers
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Rostron2
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Feb 2 2012, 12:45am
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shoeless joe orc
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
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Feb 2 2012, 11:32am
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