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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Three relevant quotes:

sador
Valinor


Jan 23 2012, 8:15am


Views: 602
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Three relevant quotes: [In reply to] Can't Post

From Inside Information - Bilbo sees the hoard for the first time:

Quote
To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. Bilbo had heard tell and sing of dragon-hoards before, but the splendour, the lust, the glory of such treasure had never yet come home to him. His heart was filled and pierced with enchantment and with the desire of dwarves; and he gazed motionless, almost forgetting the frightful guardian, at the gold beyond price and count.



From Not At Home - the Arkenstone:

Quote
...At last he looked down upon it and he caught his breath. The great jewel shone before he feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and-changes it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.
Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by it enchantment. His small hand would not close about it for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it-some time. The did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.


Of course he did not tell them anything.

From The Gathering of the Clouds - Thorin the Greedy:

Quote
...But also he did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarvish hearts. Long hours in the past days Thorin had spent in the treasury, and the lust of it was heavy on him. Though he had hunted chiefly for the Arkenstone, yet he had an eye for many another wonderful thing that was lying there, about which were wound old memories of the labours and the sorrows of his race.


As I mentioned in my response to ShireHorse, it is clear from several references that Tolkien did intend Thorin to become (at this point - and not before!) fallen because of his pride and his greed. But this is not quite what he had written - this happens after sevral days and not immediately; and is qualified by the curse of gold on which a dragon has brooded (Shippey discusses this theme as well); and by the memories of the labours and sorrows of his race.
And even so, Thorin's actions are still fair and measured. The only time Tolkien says that his judgment was actually clouded because of the 'bewilderment of treasure' is when after being betrayed and blackmailed into declaring he will ransome the Arkenstone for Bilbo's share, he still considers whether together with Dain's army he could recapture it without bargaining for it.

As a last thing, regarding The Hoard - as geordie noted, this poem originated in the 20s, at the time when the Dwarves were viewed by Tolkien as prounncedly evil (if politically often neutral). Even after The Hobbit was published, Tolkien's view of them was softened, but still quite ambivalent, as I've discussed here (questions 8-13, and 16-17).
The heroics of Azaghâl were inspired by Thorin, and not the other way round, if you understand what I mean.

Subject User Time
plot hole? Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 21 2012, 3:41pm
    My guess is because it's a suicide mission... QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Jan 21 2012, 3:46pm
        good one on the first Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 21 2012, 3:50pm
    It might have been the folly of greed SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 21 2012, 3:53pm
        good one too Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 21 2012, 3:57pm
        That was my thought DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Jan 21 2012, 3:57pm
        Huh? sador Send a private message to sador Jan 22 2012, 5:33pm
            Fair enough SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 22 2012, 10:09pm
    Makes no sense. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Jan 21 2012, 6:55pm
        Well Elizabeth, historically and traditionally, Dwarves had fought well against Dragons in battle. Xanaseb Send a private message to Xanaseb Jan 21 2012, 9:32pm
    Hmmm... sueb1863 Send a private message to sueb1863 Jan 21 2012, 7:14pm
        I thought it was made clear ShireHorse Send a private message to ShireHorse Jan 21 2012, 8:51pm
            Precisely. yeah, I agree completely with you there. Xanaseb Send a private message to Xanaseb Jan 21 2012, 9:37pm
            Re lust or greed SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 21 2012, 10:04pm
                I think you're right... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Jan 21 2012, 11:20pm
                    But the important part of that line Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 21 2012, 11:32pm
                        not sure I agree with you about Lewis titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Jan 22 2012, 1:56am
                            I'm not bashing Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 22 2012, 8:00am
                        o.O SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 22 2012, 2:13am
                            I'm not so sure Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 22 2012, 7:53am
                            Dragon-sickness and the bewilderment of gold. geordie Send a private message to geordie Jan 22 2012, 11:15am
                                Perhaps SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 22 2012, 10:27pm
                                    Three relevant quotes: sador Send a private message to sador Jan 23 2012, 8:15am
                                        Those are 3 important quotes, sador, ShireHorse Send a private message to ShireHorse Jan 23 2012, 5:13pm
                                            Yes, I agree, though this line SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 23 2012, 7:23pm
                                                thank you too Sir Dennis C and the rest Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 23 2012, 10:03pm
                                            I once made Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Jan 24 2012, 8:46am
                                            Yes! But a bit is missing sador Send a private message to sador Jan 24 2012, 8:51am
                                            i feel that could replace the presence of TORN Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 24 2012, 4:18pm
                        No, I don't think so... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Jan 22 2012, 8:53am
                            Actually, I do think of Thorin ShireHorse Send a private message to ShireHorse Jan 22 2012, 2:19pm
                                Well, yes, it's a good point... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Jan 22 2012, 3:53pm
                                    Thorin did. sador Send a private message to sador Jan 22 2012, 5:20pm
                                the problem of choose Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 22 2012, 10:40pm
                            But the question is: Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 22 2012, 6:00pm
            Agreed 100% Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 21 2012, 10:10pm
                as much as people Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Jan 21 2012, 10:32pm
                    It may just be semantics Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 21 2012, 10:51pm
                    I think that Thorin ShireHorse Send a private message to ShireHorse Jan 21 2012, 11:00pm
                        That's another excellent point Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 21 2012, 11:12pm
                        Pride, greed, and for that matter lust SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 21 2012, 11:25pm
                            I strongly disagree sador Send a private message to sador Jan 22 2012, 5:55pm
                                Disagree with which part? SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 22 2012, 9:50pm
                                    Thorin and his greed for me-SPOILERS- Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 22 2012, 10:03pm
                                    * (argh, what is it with chrome and linkies anyway?) SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 23 2012, 3:45am
                                    Thank you, Sir Dennis, ShireHorse Send a private message to ShireHorse Jan 23 2012, 11:30am
                        as a king Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 22 2012, 4:33am
                        While your analysis is right sador Send a private message to sador Jan 22 2012, 5:51pm
                A-greed Agreed, get it?? LOL Xanaseb Send a private message to Xanaseb Jan 21 2012, 11:51pm
                    lol Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 22 2012, 3:12pm
        No. sador Send a private message to sador Jan 22 2012, 5:35pm
    One does not simply walk into Erebor Alientraveller Send a private message to Alientraveller Jan 21 2012, 7:25pm
    I believe Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Jan 21 2012, 9:42pm
    If you call this a plothole sador Send a private message to sador Jan 22 2012, 6:03pm
        i didn´t know Thorin did Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 22 2012, 10:18pm
    The Hobbit is the ultimate heist movie. Owain Send a private message to Owain Jan 22 2012, 8:51pm
        It is rather Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Jan 22 2012, 9:17pm
        mission "impossible" Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 22 2012, 10:22pm
            Haha! Nice!// Owain Send a private message to Owain Jan 22 2012, 10:23pm
    I do find it strange that we don't even hear about Dain Curious Send a private message to Curious Jan 23 2012, 6:43pm
        Anger against the Iron Hills colony? Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Jan 23 2012, 7:50pm
            Yes. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jan 23 2012, 8:05pm
            Oh, it can be rationalized. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jan 23 2012, 11:05pm
                Hmmm SirDennisC Send a private message to SirDennisC Jan 23 2012, 11:29pm
                i´m with you here Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Jan 23 2012, 11:33pm
                Objectives of the quest TFP Send a private message to TFP Jan 31 2012, 1:19pm
        We do; but without a name, and it doesn't amount to much: sador Send a private message to sador Jan 24 2012, 8:42am
            That doesn't even sound like the truth. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jan 24 2012, 1:52pm
                Sure. sador Send a private message to sador Jan 24 2012, 3:09pm
    In re-reading Two Towers Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Feb 2 2012, 12:45am
        shoeless joe orc Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Feb 2 2012, 11:32am

 
 
 

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