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Well (Part Deux)

Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 1 2011, 7:07pm


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Well (Part Deux) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Why create so many shafts,…

Building underground is environmentally friendly and Saruman desperately needed some offset credits to bring down his carbon footprint.


… and so few buildings to rival Orthanc?

It’s like how supposedly zoning restrictions limit the height of buildings in Paris so that the view from any window includes the Eiffel Tower. That’s just a myth, of course, but the conceit of Isengard as France does explain quite a few things.


Why is Orthanc in the center of the circle, so far from the gates?

Because if it wasn’t in the center it would be closer to one gate but it would be farther from the other. (I remember an exercise back in college where you were supposed to prove that obvious presumption with Calculus.) The positioning of Orthanc would seem to be an architectural compromise which also explains quite a few things.


Why was the source of water apparently outside of the walled perimeter?

To keep it as far away from the Orcs as possible. (Trust me, you do not want Orcs anywhere near your watershed much less in it.)


Why wasn’t there a bolt hole Saruman could use to escape?

So he couldn’t chicken out and run if things got a bit hairy. Saruman knew himself so well.


Why didn’t Tolkien see those flaws?

What’s a flaw to one person is an advantage to another. That’s how you make lemonade, or something.


Or if he did see them, why didn’t he care?

Tobacco high. He got a bad case of the munchies as well.


Why didn’t Tolkien take us back in time to when we last saw Merry and Pippin, and continue the narrative from that point?

He was going to do the same thing with Frodo and Sam and he didn’t want to anticipate and flatten the effect. (See Letter #210.)


Or, alternatively, why didn’t Tolkien leave more of Merry and Pippin’s adventures a mystery to be cleared up later?

When? Like with the story of Aragorn and Arwen Tolkien may have had a hard time finding a place to insert it in the tale.


Why did we follow them up to a point, and no farther?

Because Tolkien felt that was the cusp of their transformation.


What is the effect of introducing the hobbits now as if they are strangers?

Because they *are* strangers. They are not the hobbits they used to be. (But then, who is?)


Tolkien plays the encounter with Merry and Pippin for humor. Merry apparently tries to give a formal speech, but his attempt is undermined by his failure to notice the arrival of the visitors, Pippin’s failure to wake, the evidence that they have been eating, drinking, smoking, and sleeping, and the amusement of his audience. Did Merry care?

Did Bilbo care at the long expected party?


Did he really intend to give a formal greeting and fail badly, or did he know that his speech would be more amusing than it was impressive?

Sometimes even the best hobbit oration falls flat. Consider the awkward silence following the line "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve".


Certainly he does not seem flustered by the response. Is he oblivious, or was his tongue firmly in his cheek?

One would think he was used to bombing with an audience. Like Bob Hope said, “they can’t all be gems”.


Is this any way to address a king?

Kind of reminds me of that joke where the punchline is “Keep your fork your Highness, there’ll be pie.”


How would Denethor have reacted?

Probably would have gotten all burned up.

(That one was easy!)


Tolkien once again plays with the contrast between formal and informal speech, but in a slightly different way than at the beginning of the chapter. Here Merry is in the unusual position of giving a formal speech to a king, and it comes across more like an amusing parody of epic romance.

Epic romances are probably the only model Merry has of how to interact with kings.


Merry either fails utterly in his supposed task, or never took his task seriously in the first place.

Or had precisely the effect he wanted.


As in the beginning of the chapter, though, Gimli punctures the pretense of formality. Why does Tolkien deliberately undermine or even mock formality at the beginning and end of this chapter, even though in many other chapters of Book III such formality is taken quite seriously?

So in Book III readers will notice the archaic prose style and realize that the effect is deliberate and vital to the story rather than just a random variation in Tolkien’s writing.


Is Tolkien making light of his own mock-archaic prose and dialogue, which was especially prevalent in this Book when the hobbits were absent?

Of course.


Why?

That’s the theme of the book: The exaltation of the humble. Fancy prose and floral speeches in contrast to homespun wisdom and corny songs.


Why now?

It’s time for some comic relief.


Other than failing to be alert and attentive and neat, is there anything else the hobbits did wrong in this encounter?

They did not order the challenged to dismount their vehicle. (See FM 22-6.)


Or maybe not wrong, exactly, since they did nothing to offend, but is there anything else they did or failed to do that caused them to be treated as something other than full-fledged warriors?

Being short.


After all, Gimli is almost as short as they are, yet no one questions his value in a fight.

By mere definition The Dwarf is invaluable in a fight. And as I’ve noted before, in any battle the hobbits are unquestionably valuable as speed bumps.


Of course, when Gimli first met the Rohirrim he almost got himself killed. Would the hobbits have won more respect if they had been more fierce?

Right after a battle when everyone is high on adrenaline and suffering testosterone poisoning is not exactly the best time to hack people off.


Should they have said something about their daring escape from the orcs and taken more credit for rousing the ents?

A good story teller primes his audience with anticipation before he begins to tell his tale. It’s even better if you get them all frustrated and make them beg for it.


Should Merry have held his tongue about pipeweed?

Yeah, so he could put some ointment on it. The pipe smoking condition known as “tongue bite” is actually a chemical burn.


Why didn’t they do so?

Pipeweed is legal in Isengard.


One of the great advantages and disadvantages of a hobbit is the likelihood of being underestimated by foe and friend alike. What do you think Theoden thought of hobbits after this encounter?

He didn’t know what to think. If he was wise he wouldn’t underestimate them.


What about Aragorn, who knew them better, but nevertheless will refuse to take Merry with him to the Paths of the Dead?

He’s traveled from one end of Arnor to the other riding herd on a gaggle of hobbits. He probably considers that more than enough for one lifetime.


Have Merry and Pippin’s friends underestimated them?

They seem to have faith in the strength and resiliency of hobbits, otherwise they would have sucker-punched Frodo and given the ring to an Elf Lord. It’s about time Elf Lords got off their keisters and did something constructive other than making lame prophecies anyway.

(Note to the Admins: I use the word "keister" in its meaning as "a box". Really.)


What if Merry and Pippin had been alert and attentive and had put the food and drink and pipeweed away?

Their manner would indicate they were terribly distracted and their stomachs would be growling like a pack of wargs.


Would that have changed how they were treated down the road?

Probably for the worse. Better to be underestimated and excel than be overestimated and fall short.


There is a true mystery hidden in this encounter which will not be cleared up until the Scouring -- where did Saruman get pipeweed?

The French, er, that is, The Isengard Connection.


But the dire implications of this find do not yet hit home. Why does Tolkien hide the import of this find?


Why does he say anything about it at all? What is the point of a hint no one is likely to understand until after the story is over? The story is, of course, full of such hints. What is the point?

To demonstrate to the reader that he actually knew what they were doing and had it all planned out.

(Unlike Chris Carter who we finally discovered was just making it up as he went along. Booo X-Files!)


By my count Aragorn has two lines in this chapter, one offering to care for Gimli’s head wound, and the other asking Gandalf about the fumes above Isengard. Why does Aragorn play such a small role in this chapter?

Well, he is a supernumerary. And M&P have already seen his “Anduril, The Flame of the West!” schtick. And the Rohirrim are probably sick of it by now as well. So what else does he have to say?

******************************************
Pippin: "When you guys fall in the forest, does it make a sound?"
Bregalad: "Are you kidding? Scott fell last week and he hasn't shut up about it since!"

Subject User Time
LotR, Book III Discussion: The Road to Isengard Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 27 2011, 1:25pm
    Ok here we have this forest....please keep axes stowed away in the upper compartment or under your seats..... PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Feb 27 2011, 7:39pm
        That was quick! Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 27 2011, 8:27pm
            be hasty! PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Feb 28 2011, 12:21pm
        I think Tolkien Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 3 2011, 3:30pm
        More thoughts about your thoughts. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 3 2011, 10:17pm
            thoughts on thoughts PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 4 2011, 3:54pm
        Why would the Hornburg be ruled out as a rendezvous? Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 4 2011, 6:49pm
    Good idea Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Feb 27 2011, 11:41pm
    A visit to the bad neighbor CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 28 2011, 1:20am
        You could raise some question of your own, Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 1:00pm
            Ents neglecting hobbits CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 28 2011, 1:27pm
                Excellent question! Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 3:29pm
                    You must be *this tall* to enter Isengard PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 2 2011, 1:34am
                        A few responses sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 8:08am
                            oh darn PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 2 2011, 5:02pm
        Good point about the staff. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 5 2011, 6:08am
            The staff is important FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 5 2011, 12:26pm
                we need a Bible scholar a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 5 2011, 3:11pm
                    I've refered to this once sador Send a private message to sador Mar 5 2011, 8:39pm
        I agree about Gandalf's staff. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 6 2011, 9:26pm
            Weather and floods and magic CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 7 2011, 3:47pm
        Let's see, where did I leave off? Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 8 2011, 8:08pm
            Orcs as sadists CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 9 2011, 5:57pm
                You were right the first time. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 9 2011, 6:06pm
                Ugluk said so. sador Send a private message to sador Mar 9 2011, 6:11pm
                    He said so twice, actually squire Send a private message to squire Mar 9 2011, 8:12pm
                        I have also understood so. // sador Send a private message to sador Mar 10 2011, 7:10am
        Okay, I guess a distinction Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 9 2011, 9:27pm
            Rivendell not a credible choice for a refuge / stronghold Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 9 2011, 10:04pm
                My best rationalization/explanation Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 9 2011, 10:41pm
    woe as in malediction; and about those orcs... a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Feb 28 2011, 4:21am
        Well, if "woe" means the Ring, Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 9 2011, 11:01pm
            no, not "the Ring", but "something like" a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 9 2011, 11:53pm
                Wright or worng? squire Send a private message to squire Mar 10 2011, 1:40am
                Yes, Tolkien didn't take the easy path. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 6:12am
                    I will think about this a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2011, 12:59pm
                        Aragorn does parlay with the orcs at Helm's Deep. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 1:24pm
                            do you mean in theology, or in ME? a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2011, 2:46pm
                                As I understand it, mortal sin cannot be forgiven after death. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 3:15pm
                                    possibly true, but I thought we were talking about a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2011, 10:18pm
                                        It does make things complicated. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 10:39pm
    Some random answers FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 28 2011, 3:33pm
        Cheddar Gorge Kimi Send a private message to Kimi Feb 28 2011, 11:16pm
        Gimli does seem more down to earth, Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 4:25pm
    1. Some thoughts and answers to Questions A-Y. squire Send a private message to squire Feb 28 2011, 8:55pm
        A score FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 28 2011, 9:38pm
        Thanks for adding your own questions! Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 10:16pm
        Regarding your extra thoughts sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 10:01am
            There's bacon FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 2 2011, 10:23am
        I finally have the opportunity Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 10:00pm
    Orc survivors from Helm's Deep Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Feb 28 2011, 9:49pm
        I did not know that.// Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 10:17pm
        Not Helm's Deep - they escaped from the Battles of the Fords of Isen squire Send a private message to squire Mar 1 2011, 7:48pm
            Helm's Deep still the best source for the Drúwaith Iaur 'remnant' Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 2 2011, 10:49pm
                Imprisonment not exile. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 2 2011, 11:17pm
                    Well spotted! Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 3 2011, 12:15am
    2. Some thoughts and answers to Questions Z-ZZ. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 1 2011, 12:17am
        The need for a red shirt character Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 1 2011, 5:25am
            It's early days yet! Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Mar 4 2011, 10:49am
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 2 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 11:17am
        Okay, back to your answers. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 13 2011, 7:10pm
    3. Some thoughts and answers to Questions AAA-ZZZ. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 1 2011, 12:56pm
        Great observations CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 1 2011, 1:50pm
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 3 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 12:00pm
    Well Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 1 2011, 3:54pm
        You crack me up! Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 1 2011, 4:17pm
        All right, I have to get back to work, Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 1 2011, 5:38pm
        Well (Part Deux) Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 1 2011, 7:07pm
        “Two legs bad, root system good.” CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 1 2011, 8:46pm
            "Ho ho ho! The sheepers do not play at their craft." sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 2:12pm
    Comments on the chapter's summary sador Send a private message to sador Mar 1 2011, 5:47pm
        post-battle burial mounds / markers Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 3 2011, 12:13am
            creepy places PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 3 2011, 6:29pm
                Snowmane was buried, not burned // FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 3 2011, 8:06pm
    4. Some thoughts and answers to Questions AAAA-YYYY. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 2 2011, 8:46pm
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 4 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 3 2011, 10:34am
            How the Ents and Nazgul are alike squire Send a private message to squire Mar 6 2011, 7:35pm
    Gandalf Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Mar 3 2011, 12:30am
    5. Some thoughts and answers to Questions ZZZZ-YYYYY. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 3 2011, 6:47am
        Those paved roads... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 3 2011, 11:23am
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 5 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 9:43am
            cutting in PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 6 2011, 12:15pm
                If I may be so bold as to disagree sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 1:50pm
                    re: PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 7 2011, 8:59am
    6. Some thoughts and answers to Questions ZZZZZ-OOOOOO. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 4 2011, 11:55am
        You are welcome. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 4 2011, 1:42pm
        Your three last thoughts sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 10:36am
        On the "collision" FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 8 2011, 10:11am
    Answers - part I sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 3:55pm
    Of Orcs and Gimli... batik Send a private message to batik Mar 7 2011, 4:15am
    Answers - part II sador Send a private message to sador Mar 7 2011, 10:14am
        Rhovanion ancestors and the burning of prisoners Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 9 2011, 9:42pm
            I have forgotten that. Thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Mar 10 2011, 7:16am

 
 
 

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