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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 1 2011, 7:07pm
Views: 1032
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Why create so many shafts,… Building underground is environmentally friendly and Saruman desperately needed some offset credits to bring down his carbon footprint. … and so few buildings to rival Orthanc? It’s like how supposedly zoning restrictions limit the height of buildings in Paris so that the view from any window includes the Eiffel Tower. That’s just a myth, of course, but the conceit of Isengard as France does explain quite a few things. Why is Orthanc in the center of the circle, so far from the gates? Because if it wasn’t in the center it would be closer to one gate but it would be farther from the other. (I remember an exercise back in college where you were supposed to prove that obvious presumption with Calculus.) The positioning of Orthanc would seem to be an architectural compromise which also explains quite a few things. Why was the source of water apparently outside of the walled perimeter? To keep it as far away from the Orcs as possible. (Trust me, you do not want Orcs anywhere near your watershed much less in it.) Why wasn’t there a bolt hole Saruman could use to escape? So he couldn’t chicken out and run if things got a bit hairy. Saruman knew himself so well. Why didn’t Tolkien see those flaws? What’s a flaw to one person is an advantage to another. That’s how you make lemonade, or something. Or if he did see them, why didn’t he care? Tobacco high. He got a bad case of the munchies as well. Why didn’t Tolkien take us back in time to when we last saw Merry and Pippin, and continue the narrative from that point? He was going to do the same thing with Frodo and Sam and he didn’t want to anticipate and flatten the effect. (See Letter #210.) Or, alternatively, why didn’t Tolkien leave more of Merry and Pippin’s adventures a mystery to be cleared up later? When? Like with the story of Aragorn and Arwen Tolkien may have had a hard time finding a place to insert it in the tale. Why did we follow them up to a point, and no farther? Because Tolkien felt that was the cusp of their transformation. What is the effect of introducing the hobbits now as if they are strangers? Because they *are* strangers. They are not the hobbits they used to be. (But then, who is?) Tolkien plays the encounter with Merry and Pippin for humor. Merry apparently tries to give a formal speech, but his attempt is undermined by his failure to notice the arrival of the visitors, Pippin’s failure to wake, the evidence that they have been eating, drinking, smoking, and sleeping, and the amusement of his audience. Did Merry care? Did Bilbo care at the long expected party? Did he really intend to give a formal greeting and fail badly, or did he know that his speech would be more amusing than it was impressive? Sometimes even the best hobbit oration falls flat. Consider the awkward silence following the line "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". Certainly he does not seem flustered by the response. Is he oblivious, or was his tongue firmly in his cheek? One would think he was used to bombing with an audience. Like Bob Hope said, “they can’t all be gems”. Is this any way to address a king? Kind of reminds me of that joke where the punchline is “Keep your fork your Highness, there’ll be pie.” How would Denethor have reacted? Probably would have gotten all burned up. (That one was easy!) Tolkien once again plays with the contrast between formal and informal speech, but in a slightly different way than at the beginning of the chapter. Here Merry is in the unusual position of giving a formal speech to a king, and it comes across more like an amusing parody of epic romance. Epic romances are probably the only model Merry has of how to interact with kings. Merry either fails utterly in his supposed task, or never took his task seriously in the first place. Or had precisely the effect he wanted. As in the beginning of the chapter, though, Gimli punctures the pretense of formality. Why does Tolkien deliberately undermine or even mock formality at the beginning and end of this chapter, even though in many other chapters of Book III such formality is taken quite seriously? So in Book III readers will notice the archaic prose style and realize that the effect is deliberate and vital to the story rather than just a random variation in Tolkien’s writing. Is Tolkien making light of his own mock-archaic prose and dialogue, which was especially prevalent in this Book when the hobbits were absent? Of course. Why? That’s the theme of the book: The exaltation of the humble. Fancy prose and floral speeches in contrast to homespun wisdom and corny songs. Why now? It’s time for some comic relief. Other than failing to be alert and attentive and neat, is there anything else the hobbits did wrong in this encounter? They did not order the challenged to dismount their vehicle. (See FM 22-6.) Or maybe not wrong, exactly, since they did nothing to offend, but is there anything else they did or failed to do that caused them to be treated as something other than full-fledged warriors? Being short. After all, Gimli is almost as short as they are, yet no one questions his value in a fight. By mere definition The Dwarf is invaluable in a fight. And as I’ve noted before, in any battle the hobbits are unquestionably valuable as speed bumps. Of course, when Gimli first met the Rohirrim he almost got himself killed. Would the hobbits have won more respect if they had been more fierce? Right after a battle when everyone is high on adrenaline and suffering testosterone poisoning is not exactly the best time to hack people off. Should they have said something about their daring escape from the orcs and taken more credit for rousing the ents? A good story teller primes his audience with anticipation before he begins to tell his tale. It’s even better if you get them all frustrated and make them beg for it. Should Merry have held his tongue about pipeweed? Yeah, so he could put some ointment on it. The pipe smoking condition known as “tongue bite” is actually a chemical burn. Why didn’t they do so? Pipeweed is legal in Isengard. One of the great advantages and disadvantages of a hobbit is the likelihood of being underestimated by foe and friend alike. What do you think Theoden thought of hobbits after this encounter? He didn’t know what to think. If he was wise he wouldn’t underestimate them. What about Aragorn, who knew them better, but nevertheless will refuse to take Merry with him to the Paths of the Dead? He’s traveled from one end of Arnor to the other riding herd on a gaggle of hobbits. He probably considers that more than enough for one lifetime. Have Merry and Pippin’s friends underestimated them? They seem to have faith in the strength and resiliency of hobbits, otherwise they would have sucker-punched Frodo and given the ring to an Elf Lord. It’s about time Elf Lords got off their keisters and did something constructive other than making lame prophecies anyway. (Note to the Admins: I use the word "keister" in its meaning as "a box". Really.) What if Merry and Pippin had been alert and attentive and had put the food and drink and pipeweed away? Their manner would indicate they were terribly distracted and their stomachs would be growling like a pack of wargs. Would that have changed how they were treated down the road? Probably for the worse. Better to be underestimated and excel than be overestimated and fall short. There is a true mystery hidden in this encounter which will not be cleared up until the Scouring -- where did Saruman get pipeweed? The French, er, that is, The Isengard Connection. But the dire implications of this find do not yet hit home. Why does Tolkien hide the import of this find? Why does he say anything about it at all? What is the point of a hint no one is likely to understand until after the story is over? The story is, of course, full of such hints. What is the point? To demonstrate to the reader that he actually knew what they were doing and had it all planned out. (Unlike Chris Carter who we finally discovered was just making it up as he went along. Booo X-Files!) By my count Aragorn has two lines in this chapter, one offering to care for Gimli’s head wound, and the other asking Gandalf about the fumes above Isengard. Why does Aragorn play such a small role in this chapter? Well, he is a supernumerary. And M&P have already seen his “Anduril, The Flame of the West!” schtick. And the Rohirrim are probably sick of it by now as well. So what else does he have to say?
****************************************** Pippin: "When you guys fall in the forest, does it make a sound?" Bregalad: "Are you kidding? Scott fell last week and he hasn't shut up about it since!"
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Subject
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User
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Time
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LotR, Book III Discussion: The Road to Isengard
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Curious
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Feb 27 2011, 1:25pm
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Ok here we have this forest....please keep axes stowed away in the upper compartment or under your seats.....
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PhantomS
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Feb 27 2011, 7:39pm
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That was quick!
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Curious
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Feb 27 2011, 8:27pm
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be hasty!
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PhantomS
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Feb 28 2011, 12:21pm
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I think Tolkien
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Curious
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Mar 3 2011, 3:30pm
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More thoughts about your thoughts.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2011, 10:17pm
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thoughts on thoughts
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PhantomS
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Mar 4 2011, 3:54pm
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Why would the Hornburg be ruled out as a rendezvous?
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Curious
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Mar 4 2011, 6:49pm
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Good idea
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Feb 27 2011, 11:41pm
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A visit to the bad neighbor
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CuriousG
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Feb 28 2011, 1:20am
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You could raise some question of your own,
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Curious
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Feb 28 2011, 1:00pm
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Ents neglecting hobbits
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CuriousG
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Feb 28 2011, 1:27pm
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Excellent question!
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Curious
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Feb 28 2011, 3:29pm
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You must be *this tall* to enter Isengard
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PhantomS
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Mar 2 2011, 1:34am
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A few responses
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sador
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Mar 2 2011, 8:08am
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oh darn
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PhantomS
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Mar 2 2011, 5:02pm
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Good point about the staff.
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Curious
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Mar 5 2011, 6:08am
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The staff is important
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FarFromHome
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Mar 5 2011, 12:26pm
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we need a Bible scholar
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a.s.
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Mar 5 2011, 3:11pm
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I've refered to this once
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sador
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Mar 5 2011, 8:39pm
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I agree about Gandalf's staff.
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Curious
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Mar 6 2011, 9:26pm
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Weather and floods and magic
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CuriousG
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Mar 7 2011, 3:47pm
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Let's see, where did I leave off?
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Curious
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Mar 8 2011, 8:08pm
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Orcs as sadists
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CuriousG
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Mar 9 2011, 5:57pm
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You were right the first time.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 9 2011, 6:06pm
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Ugluk said so.
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sador
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Mar 9 2011, 6:11pm
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He said so twice, actually
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squire
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Mar 9 2011, 8:12pm
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I have also understood so. //
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sador
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Mar 10 2011, 7:10am
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Okay, I guess a distinction
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Curious
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Mar 9 2011, 9:27pm
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Rivendell not a credible choice for a refuge / stronghold
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Felagund
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Mar 9 2011, 10:04pm
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My best rationalization/explanation
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Curious
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Mar 9 2011, 10:41pm
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woe as in malediction; and about those orcs...
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a.s.
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Feb 28 2011, 4:21am
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Well, if "woe" means the Ring,
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Curious
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Mar 9 2011, 11:01pm
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no, not "the Ring", but "something like"
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a.s.
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Mar 9 2011, 11:53pm
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Wright or worng?
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squire
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Mar 10 2011, 1:40am
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Yes, Tolkien didn't take the easy path.
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Curious
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Mar 10 2011, 6:12am
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I will think about this
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2011, 12:59pm
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Aragorn does parlay with the orcs at Helm's Deep.
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Curious
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Mar 10 2011, 1:24pm
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do you mean in theology, or in ME?
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2011, 2:46pm
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As I understand it, mortal sin cannot be forgiven after death.
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Curious
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Mar 10 2011, 3:15pm
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possibly true, but I thought we were talking about
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2011, 10:18pm
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It does make things complicated.
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Curious
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Mar 10 2011, 10:39pm
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Some random answers
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FarFromHome
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Feb 28 2011, 3:33pm
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Cheddar Gorge
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Kimi
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Feb 28 2011, 11:16pm
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Gimli does seem more down to earth,
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Curious
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Mar 10 2011, 4:25pm
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1. Some thoughts and answers to Questions A-Y.
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squire
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Feb 28 2011, 8:55pm
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A score
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FarFromHome
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Feb 28 2011, 9:38pm
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Thanks for adding your own questions!
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Curious
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Feb 28 2011, 10:16pm
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Regarding your extra thoughts
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sador
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Mar 2 2011, 10:01am
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There's bacon
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2011, 10:23am
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I finally have the opportunity
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Curious
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Mar 10 2011, 10:00pm
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Orc survivors from Helm's Deep
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Felagund
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Feb 28 2011, 9:49pm
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I did not know that.//
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Curious
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Feb 28 2011, 10:17pm
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Not Helm's Deep - they escaped from the Battles of the Fords of Isen
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squire
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Mar 1 2011, 7:48pm
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Helm's Deep still the best source for the Drúwaith Iaur 'remnant'
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Felagund
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Mar 2 2011, 10:49pm
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Imprisonment not exile.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2011, 11:17pm
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Well spotted!
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Felagund
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Mar 3 2011, 12:15am
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2. Some thoughts and answers to Questions Z-ZZ.
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squire
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Mar 1 2011, 12:17am
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The need for a red shirt character
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Elizabeth
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Mar 1 2011, 5:25am
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It's early days yet!
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Mar 4 2011, 10:49am
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Regarding your extra thoughts - part 2
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sador
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Mar 2 2011, 11:17am
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Okay, back to your answers.
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Curious
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Mar 13 2011, 7:10pm
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3. Some thoughts and answers to Questions AAA-ZZZ.
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squire
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Mar 1 2011, 12:56pm
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Great observations
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CuriousG
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Mar 1 2011, 1:50pm
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Regarding your extra thoughts - part 3
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sador
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Mar 2 2011, 12:00pm
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Well
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Darkstone
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Mar 1 2011, 3:54pm
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You crack me up!
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Curious
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Mar 1 2011, 4:17pm
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All right, I have to get back to work,
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 1 2011, 5:38pm
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Well (Part Deux)
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Darkstone
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Mar 1 2011, 7:07pm
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“Two legs bad, root system good.”
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CuriousG
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Mar 1 2011, 8:46pm
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"Ho ho ho! The sheepers do not play at their craft."
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sador
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Mar 2 2011, 2:12pm
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Comments on the chapter's summary
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sador
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Mar 1 2011, 5:47pm
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post-battle burial mounds / markers
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Felagund
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Mar 3 2011, 12:13am
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creepy places
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PhantomS
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Mar 3 2011, 6:29pm
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Snowmane was buried, not burned //
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2011, 8:06pm
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4. Some thoughts and answers to Questions AAAA-YYYY.
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squire
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Mar 2 2011, 8:46pm
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Regarding your extra thoughts - part 4
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sador
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Mar 3 2011, 10:34am
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How the Ents and Nazgul are alike
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squire
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Mar 6 2011, 7:35pm
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Gandalf
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Mar 3 2011, 12:30am
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5. Some thoughts and answers to Questions ZZZZ-YYYYY.
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squire
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Mar 3 2011, 6:47am
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Those paved roads...
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2011, 11:23am
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Regarding your extra thoughts - part 5
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sador
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Mar 6 2011, 9:43am
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cutting in
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PhantomS
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Mar 6 2011, 12:15pm
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If I may be so bold as to disagree
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sador
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Mar 6 2011, 1:50pm
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re:
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PhantomS
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Mar 7 2011, 8:59am
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6. Some thoughts and answers to Questions ZZZZZ-OOOOOO.
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squire
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Mar 4 2011, 11:55am
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You are welcome.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2011, 1:42pm
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Your three last thoughts
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sador
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Mar 6 2011, 10:36am
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On the "collision"
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FarFromHome
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Mar 8 2011, 10:11am
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Answers - part I
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sador
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Mar 6 2011, 3:55pm
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Of Orcs and Gimli...
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batik
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Mar 7 2011, 4:15am
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Answers - part II
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sador
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Mar 7 2011, 10:14am
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Rhovanion ancestors and the burning of prisoners
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Felagund
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Mar 9 2011, 9:42pm
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I have forgotten that. Thank you!
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sador
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Mar 10 2011, 7:16am
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